§515ΣΩ. νῦν δέ, ὦ βέλτιστε ἀνδρῶν, ἐπειδὴ σὺ μὲν αὐτὸς ἄρτι ἄρχῃ πράττειν τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράγματα, ἐμὲ δὲ παρακαλεῖς καὶ ὀνειδίζεις ὅτι οὐ πράττω, οὐκ ἐπισκεψόμεθα ἀλλήλους, φέρε, Καλλικλῆς ἤδη τινὰ βελτίω πεποίηκεν τῶν πολιτῶν;
SOCRATES: But now, my excellent friend, since you yourself are just beginning to engage in the affairs of the city, and are encouraging and reproaching me for not doing so, shall we not examine one another? Come, has Callicles already made any of the citizens better?
ἔστιν ὅστις πρότερον πονηρὸς ὤν, ἄδικός τε καὶ ἀκόλαστος καὶ ἄφρων, διὰ Καλλικλέα καλός τε κἀγαθὸς γέγονεν, ἢ ξένος ἢ ἀστός, ἢ δοῦλος ἢ ἐλεύθερος;
Is there anyone who, formerly being wicked, unjust, undisciplined, and foolish, has become noble and good through Callicles, whether stranger or citizen, slave or free man?
λέγε μοι, ἐάν τίς σε ταῦτα ἐξετάζῃ, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, τί ἐρεῖς;
Tell me, if someone should examine you on these things, Callicles, what will you say?
τίνα φήσεις βελτίω πεποιηκέναι ἄνθρωπον τῇ συνουσίᾳ τῇ σῇ;
Whom will you say you have made better by your company?
ὀκνεῖς ἀποκρίνασθαι, εἴπερ ἔστιν τι ἔργον σὸν ἔτι ἰδιωτεύοντος, πρὶν δημοσιεύειν ἐπιχειρεῖν;
Do you hesitate to answer, if indeed there is any work of yours while you were still in private life, before attempting to practice publicly?
ΚΑΛ. φιλόνικος εἶ, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: You are a lover of victory, Socrates.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὐ φιλονικίᾳ γε ἐρωτῶ, ἀλλʼ ὡς ἀληθῶς βουλόμενος εἰδέναι ὅντινά ποτε τρόπον οἴει δεῖν πολιτεύεσθαι ἐν ἡμῖν.
SOCRATES: But I do not ask from love of victory, but from a genuine desire to know in what way indeed you think one ought to conduct public affairs among us.
ἢ ἄλλου του ἄρα ἐπιμελήσῃ ἡμῖν ἐλθὼν ἐπὶ τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράγματα ἢ ὅπως ὅτι βέλτιστοι οἱ πολῖται ὦμεν;
Or will you, on entering upon the affairs of the city, care for anything else for us than that we, the citizens, should be as good as possible?
ἢ οὐ πολλάκις ἤδη ὡμολογήκαμεν τοῦτο δεῖν πράττειν τὸν πολιτικὸν ἄνδρα;
Or have we not already agreed many times that the statesman ought to do this?
ὡμολογήκαμεν ἢ οὔ;
Have we agreed or not?
ἀποκρίνου.
Answer.
ὡμολογήκαμεν· ἐγὼ ὑπὲρ σοῦ ἀποκρινοῦμαι.
We have agreed; I will answer for you.
εἰ τοίνυν τοῦτο δεῖ τὸν ἀγαθὸν ἄνδρα παρασκευάζειν τῇ ἑαυτοῦ πόλει, νῦν μοι ἀναμνησθεὶς εἰπὲ περὶ ἐκείνων τῶν ἀνδρῶν ὧν ὀλίγῳ πρότερον ἔλεγες, εἰ ἔτι σοι δοκοῦσιν ἀγαθοὶ πολῖται γεγονέναι, Περικλῆς καὶ Κίμων καὶ Μιλτιάδης καὶ Θεμιστοκλῆς.
If, then, this is what the good man must prepare for his own city, now recall and tell me about those men whom you mentioned a little while ago, whether they still seem to you to have been good citizens, Pericles and Cimon and Miltiades and Themistocles.
ΚΑΛ. ἔμοιγε.
CALLICLES: To me, yes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἴπερ ἀγαθοί, δῆλον ὅτι ἕκαστος αὐτῶν βελτίους ἐποίει τοὺς πολίτας ἀντὶ χειρόνων.
SOCRATES: Then, if they were indeed good, it is clear that each of them made the citizens better instead of worse.
ἐποίει ἢ οὔ;
Did he or not?
ΚΑΛ. ναί.
CALLICLES: Yes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ὅτε Περικλῆς ἤρχετο λέγειν ἐν τῷ δήμῳ, χείρους ἦσαν οἱ Ἀθηναῖοι ἢ ὅτε τὰ τελευταῖα ἔλεγεν;
SOCRATES: Then, when Pericles began to speak before the people, were the Athenians worse than when he made his last speeches?
ΚΑΛ. ἴσως.
CALLICLES: Perhaps.
ΣΩ. οὐκ ἴσως δή, ὦ βέλτιστε, ἀλλʼ ἀνάγκη ἐκ τῶν ὡμολογημένων, εἴπερ ἀγαθός γʼ ἦν ἐκεῖνος πολίτης.
SOCRATES: Not "perhaps," indeed, my excellent friend, but it is necessary from what has been agreed, if indeed he was a good citizen.
ΚΑΛ. τί οὖν δή;
CALLICLES: What of it, then?
ΣΩ. οὐδέν· ἀλλὰ τόδε μοι εἰπὲ ἐπὶ τούτῳ, εἰ λέγονται Ἀθηναῖοι διὰ Περικλέα βελτίους γεγονέναι, ἢ πᾶν τοὐναντίον διαφθαρῆναι ὑπʼ ἐκείνου.
SOCRATES: Nothing; but tell me this in addition, whether the Athenians are said to have become better through Pericles, or, quite the contrary, to have been corrupted by him.
ταυτὶ γὰρ ἔγωγε ἀκούω, Περικλέα πεποιηκέναι Ἀθηναίους ἀργοὺς καὶ δειλοὺς καὶ λάλους καὶ φιλαργύρους, εἰς μισθοφορίαν πρῶτον καταστήσαντα.
For this is what I, at least, hear: that Pericles made the Athenians idle, cowardly, talkative, and avaricious, by having first established the payment of public fees.
ΚΑΛ. τῶν τὰ ὦτα κατεαγότων ἀκούεις ταῦτα, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: You hear these things, Socrates, from those with bruised ears.
§516ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ τάδε οὐκέτι ἀκούω, ἀλλʼ οἶδα σαφῶς καὶ ἐγὼ καὶ σύ, ὅτι τὸ μὲν πρῶτον ηὐδοκίμει Περικλῆς καὶ οὐδεμίαν αἰσχρὰν δίκην κατεψηφίσαντο αὐτοῦ Ἀθηναῖοι, ἡνίκα χείρους ἦσαν· ἐπειδὴ δὲ καλοὶ κἀγαθοὶ ἐγεγόνεσαν ὑπʼ αὐτοῦ, ἐπὶ τελευτῇ τοῦ βίου τοῦ Περικλέους, κλοπὴν αὐτοῦ κατεψηφίσαντο, ὀλίγου δὲ καὶ θανάτου ἐτίμησαν, δῆλον ὅτι ὡς πονηροῦ ὄντος.
SOCRATES: But I no longer merely hear this, but both you and I know clearly that, at first, Pericles was well-reputed and the Athenians did not pass any shameful sentence against him when they were worse; but when they had become noble and good through him, at the end of Pericles' life, they voted him guilty of theft and came near to condemning him to death, clearly because they regarded him as a wicked man.
ΚΑΛ. τί οὖν;
CALLICLES: What of it?
τούτου ἕνεκα κακὸς ἦν Περικλῆς;
Was Pericles bad because of this?
ΣΩ. ὄνων γοῦν ἂν ἐπιμελητὴς καὶ ἵππων καὶ βοῶν τοιοῦτος ὢν κακὸς ἂν ἐδόκει εἶναι, εἰ παραλαβὼν μὴ λακτίζοντας ἑαυτὸν μηδὲ κυρίττοντας μηδὲ δάκνοντας ἀπέδειξε ταῦτα ἅπαντα ποιοῦντας διʼ ἀγριότητα.
SOCRATES: At least a caretaker of donkeys and horses and cattle, being of such a sort, would have been thought bad if, having received them when they did not kick him nor butt nor bite, he showed them doing all these things because of wildness.
ἢ οὐ δοκεῖ σοι κακὸς εἶναι ἐπιμελητὴς ὁστισοῦν ὁτουοῦν ζῴου, ὃς ἂν παραλαβὼν ἡμερώτερα ἀποδείξῃ ἀγριώτερα ἢ παρέλαβε;
Or does it not seem to you that any caretaker of any animal whatsoever is bad, who, having received them tamer, shows them to be wilder than when he received them?
δοκεῖ ἢ οὔ;
Does it seem so or not?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε, ἵνα σοι χαρίσωμαι.
CALLICLES: Quite so, just to please you.
ΣΩ. καὶ τόδε τοίνυν μοι χάρισαι ἀποκρινάμενος· πότερον καὶ ὁ ἄνθρωπος ἓν τῶν ζῴων ἐστὶν ἢ οὔ;
SOCRATES: Then please me by answering this as well: is man also one of the animals, or not?
ΚΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CALLICLES: How could he not be?
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν ἀνθρώπων Περικλῆς ἐπεμέλετο;
SOCRATES: Therefore Pericles was caring for men?
ΚΑΛ. ναί.
CALLICLES: Yes.
ΣΩ. τί οὖν;
SOCRATES: What then?
οὐκ ἔδει αὐτούς, ὡς ἄρτι ὡμολογοῦμεν, δικαιοτέρους γεγονέναι ἀντὶ ἀδικωτέρων ὑπʼ ἐκείνου, εἴπερ ἐκεῖνος ἐπεμελεῖτο αὐτῶν ἀγαθὸς ὢν τὰ πολιτικά;
Ought they not, as we were just now agreeing, to have become more just instead of more unjust through him, if indeed he cared for them as a man good in political affairs?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Quite so.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἵ γε δίκαιοι ἥμεροι, ὡς ἔφη Ὅμηρος·
SOCRATES: Therefore the just, at least, are tame, as Homer said.
σὺ δὲ τί φῄς;
But what do you say?
οὐχ οὕτως;
Is it not so?
ΚΑΛ. ναί.
CALLICLES: Yes.
ΣΩ. ἀλλὰ μὴν ἀγριωτέρους γε αὐτοὺς ἀπέφηνεν ἢ οἵους παρέλαβεν, καὶ ταῦτʼ εἰς αὑτόν, ὃν ἥκιστʼ ἂν ἐβούλετο.
SOCRATES: But yet he showed them to be wilder than when he received them, and that too against himself, whom he would least of all have wished.
ΚΑΛ. βούλει σοι ὁμολογήσω;
CALLICLES: Do you wish me to agree with you?
ΣΩ. εἰ δοκῶ γε σοι ἀληθῆ λέγειν.
SOCRATES: If indeed I seem to you to speak the truth.
ΚΑΛ. ἔστω δὴ ταῦτα.
CALLICLES: Let these things be so, then.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν εἴπερ ἀγριωτέρους, ἀδικωτέρους τε καὶ χείρους;
SOCRATES: Therefore, if indeed wilder, more unjust and worse?
ΚΑΛ. ἔστω.
CALLICLES: Let it be.
ΣΩ. οὐκ ἄρʼ ἀγαθὸς τὰ πολιτικὰ Περικλῆς ἦν ἐκ τούτου τοῦ λόγου.
SOCRATES: Then Pericles was not good in political affairs according to this argument.
ΚΑΛ. οὐ σύ γε φῄς.
CALLICLES: So you say.
ΣΩ. μὰ Δίʼ οὐδέ γε σὺ ἐξ ὧν ὡμολόγεις.
SOCRATES: By Zeus, nor you either, from what you were agreeing to.
πάλιν δὲ λέγε μοι περὶ Κίμωνος· οὐκ ἐξωστράκισαν αὐτὸν οὗτοι οὓς ἐθεράπευεν, ἵνα αὐτοῦ δέκα ἐτῶν μὴ ἀκούσειαν τῆς φωνῆς;
But tell me again about Cimon: did not these very people whom he was caring for ostracize him, so that they might not hear his voice for ten years?
καὶ Θεμιστοκλέα ταὐτὰ ταῦτα ἐποίησαν καὶ φυγῇ προσεζημίωσαν;
And did they not do these very same things to Themistocles, and punish him with exile besides?
Μιλτιάδην δὲ τὸν Μαραθῶνι εἰς τὸ βάραθρον ἐμβαλεῖν ἐψηφίσαντο, καὶ εἰ μὴ διὰ τὸν πρύτανιν, ἐνέπεσεν ἄν;
And as for Miltiades, the hero of Marathon, did they not vote to cast him into the pit, and had it not been for the prytanis, would he not have been cast in?
καίτοι οὗτοι, εἰ ἦσαν ἄνδρες ἀγαθοί, ὡς σὺ φῄς, οὐκ ἄν ποτε ταῦτα ἔπασχον.
And yet these men, if they were good men, as you say, would never have suffered these things.
οὔκουν οἵ γε ἀγαθοὶ ἡνίοχοι κατʼ ἀρχὰς μὲν οὐκ ἐκπίπτουσιν ἐκ τῶν ζευγῶν, ἐπειδὰν δὲ θεραπεύσωσιν τοὺς ἵππους καὶ αὐτοὶ ἀμείνους γένωνται ἡνίοχοι, τότʼ ἐκπίπτουσιν·
For surely good charioteers do not fall out of their chariots at the beginning, but then, after they have cared for the horses and become better charioteers themselves, fall out then.
οὐκ ἔστι ταῦτʼ οὔτʼ ἐν ἡνιοχείᾳ οὔτʼ ἐν ἄλλῳ ἔργῳ οὐδενί· ἢ δοκεῖ σοι;
There is no such thing either in chariot-driving or in any other work whatsoever; or does it seem so to you?
ΚΑΛ. οὐκ ἔμοιγε.
CALLICLES: To me, at least, no.