§490ΣΩ. πολλάκις ἄρα εἷς φρονῶν μυρίων μὴ φρονούντων κρείττων ἐστὶν κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον, καὶ τοῦτον ἄρχειν δεῖ, τοὺς δʼ ἄρχεσθαι, καὶ πλέον ἔχειν τὸν ἄρχοντα τῶν ἀρχομένων·
SOCRATES: Therefore, according to your argument, one wise person is often superior to ten thousand unwise people, and this person should rule while the others are ruled, and the ruler should have more than the ruled.
τοῦτο γάρ μοι δοκεῖς βούλεσθαι λέγειν—καὶ οὐ ῥήματι θηρεύω—εἰ ὁ εἷς τῶν μυρίων κρείττων.
For you seem to mean this—and I am not hunting after words—if the one is superior to the ten thousand.
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλὰ ταῦτʼ ἔστιν ἃ λέγω.
CALLICLES: Well, that is indeed what I mean.
τοῦτο γὰρ οἶμαι ἐγὼ τὸ δίκαιον εἶναι φύσει, τὸ βελτίω ὄντα καὶ φρονιμώτερον καὶ ἄρχειν καὶ πλέον ἔχειν τῶν φαυλοτέρων.
For I think this is what is just by nature, that the one who is better and wiser should both rule and have more than the inferior ones.
ΣΩ. ἔχε δὴ αὐτοῦ.
SOCRATES: Hold on there.
τί ποτε αὖ νῦν λέγεις;
What on earth are you saying now?
ἐὰν ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ ὦμεν, ὥσπερ νῦν, πολλοὶ ἁθρόοι, καὶ ἡμῖν ᾖ ἐν κοινῷ πολλὰ σιτία καὶ ποτά, ὦμεν δὲ παντοδαποί, οἱ μὲν ἰσχυροί, οἱ δʼ ἀσθενεῖς, εἷς δὲ ἡμῶν ᾖ φρονιμώτερος περὶ ταῦτα, ἰατρὸς ὤν, ᾖ δέ, οἷον εἰκός, τῶν μὲν ἰσχυρότερος, τῶν δὲ ἀσθενέστερος, ἄλλο τι ἢ οὗτος, φρονιμώτερος ἡμῶν ὤν, βελτίων καὶ κρείττων ἔσται εἰς ταῦτα;
If we are gathered together in large numbers in the same place, just as we are now, and we have in common a large amount of food and drink, and we are of all sorts, some strong and some weak, but one of us is wiser about these things, being a doctor, and he is, as is likely, stronger than some and weaker than others; since he is wiser than us, will he not be better and superior to us in these matters?
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Certainly.
ΣΩ. ἦ οὖν τούτων τῶν σιτίων πλέον ἡμῶν ἑκτέον αὐτῷ, ὅτι βελτίων ἐστίν, ἢ τῷ μὲν ἄρχειν πάντα ἐκεῖνον δεῖ νέμειν, ἐν τῷ δὲ ἀναλίσκειν τε αὐτὰ καὶ καταχρῆσθαι εἰς τὸ ἑαυτοῦ σῶμα οὐ πλεονεκτητέον, εἰ μὴ μέλλει ζημιοῦσθαι, ἀλλὰ τῶν μὲν πλέον, τῶν δʼ ἔλαττον ἑκτέον·
SOCRATES: Should he then have more of this food than us because he is better? Or, while he should distribute everything because he rules, should he not have more for his own consumption and use for his own body, unless he is to be punished, but rather give more to some and less to others?
ἐὰν δὲ τύχῃ πάντων ἀσθενέστατος ὤν, πάντων ἐλάχιστον τῷ βελτίστῳ, ὦ Καλλίκλεις;
And if he happens to be the weakest of all, should not the best person have the least of all, Callicles?
οὐχ οὕτως, ὠγαθέ;
Is it not so, my good friend?
ΚΑΛ. περὶ σιτία, λέγεις, καὶ ποτὰ καὶ ἰατροὺς καὶ φλυαρίας· ἐγὼ δὲ οὐ ταῦτα λέγω.
CALLICLES: You talk about food and drink and doctors and nonsense; I do not mean these things.
ΣΩ. πότερον οὐ τὸν φρονιμώτερον βελτίω λέγεις;
SOCRATES: Do you not say the wiser is the better?
φάθι ἢ μή.
Say yes or no.
ΚΑΛ. ἔγωγε.
CALLICLES: I do.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ οὐ τὸν βελτίω πλέον δεῖν ἔχειν;
SOCRATES: But did you not say the better should have more?
ΚΑΛ. οὐ σιτίων γε οὐδὲ ποτῶν.
CALLICLES: Not of food or drink.
ΣΩ. μανθάνω, ἀλλʼ ἴσως ἱματίων, καὶ δεῖ τὸν ὑφαντικώτατον μέγιστον ἱμάτιον ἔχειν καὶ πλεῖστα καὶ κάλλιστα ἀμπεχόμενον περιιέναι;
SOCRATES: I understand. Perhaps of clothes, then, and the most skilled weaver should have the largest cloak and go about wearing the most and most beautiful clothes?
ΚΑΛ. ποίων ἱματίων;
CALLICLES: What clothes?
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εἰς ὑποδήματα δῆλον ὅτι δεῖ πλεονεκτεῖν τὸν φρονιμώτατον εἰς ταῦτα καὶ βέλτιστον.
SOCRATES: Then about shoes, it is clear that the wisest and best in these matters should have more.
τὸν σκυτοτόμον ἴσως μέγιστα δεῖ ὑποδήματα καὶ πλεῖστα ὑποδεδεμένον περιπατεῖν.
Perhaps the shoemaker should walk about wearing the largest shoes and the greatest number of shoes.
ΚΑΛ. ποῖα ὑποδήματα;
CALLICLES: What shoes?
φλυαρεῖς ἔχων.
You keep talking nonsense.
ΣΩ. ἀλλʼ εἰ μὴ τὰ τοιαῦτα λέγεις, ἴσως τὰ τοιάδε· οἷον γεωργικὸν ἄνδρα περὶ γῆν φρόνιμόν τε καὶ καλὸν καὶ ἀγαθόν, τοῦτον δὴ ἴσως δεῖ πλεονεκτεῖν τῶν σπερμάτων καὶ ὡς πλείστῳ σπέρματι χρῆσθαι εἰς τὴν αὑτοῦ γῆν.
SOCRATES: But if you do not mean such things, perhaps you mean things like this: for example, a farmer who is wise, noble, and good about land; perhaps this man should have more of the seeds and use the greatest amount of seed on his own land.
ΚΑΛ. ὡς ἀεὶ ταὐτὰ λέγεις, ὦ Σώκρατες.
CALLICLES: How you always say the same things, Socrates.
ΣΩ. οὐ μόνον γε, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, ἀλλὰ καὶ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν.
SOCRATES: Not only that, Callicles, but also about the same things.
§491ΚΑΛ. νὴ τοὺς θεούς, ἀτεχνῶς γε ἀεὶ σκυτέας τε καὶ κναφέας καὶ μαγείρους λέγων καὶ ἰατροὺς οὐδὲν παύῃ, ὡς περὶ τούτων ἡμῖν ὄντα τὸν λόγον.
CALLICLES: By the gods, you literally never stop talking about shoemakers, fullers, cooks, and doctors, as if our discussion were about them.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν σὺ ἐρεῖς περὶ τίνων ὁ κρείττων τε καὶ φρονιμώτερος πλέον ἔχων δικαίως πλεονεκτεῖ;
SOCRATES: Then will you not say about what things the superior and wiser person justly has more and gets more?
ἢ οὔτε ἐμοῦ ὑποβάλλοντος ἀνέξῃ οὔτʼ αὐτὸς ἐρεῖς;
Or will you neither tolerate my prompting nor say so yourself?
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἔγωγε καὶ πάλαι λέγω.
CALLICLES: Why, I have been saying so for a long time.
πρῶτον μὲν τοὺς κρείττους οἵ εἰσιν οὐ σκυτοτόμους λέγω οὐδὲ μαγείρους, ἀλλʼ οἳ ἂν εἰς τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράγματα φρόνιμοι ὦσιν, ὅντινα ἂν τρόπον εὖ οἰκοῖτο, καὶ μὴ μόνον φρόνιμοι, ἀλλὰ καὶ ἀνδρεῖοι, ἱκανοὶ ὄντες ἃ ἂν νοήσωσιν ἐπιτελεῖν, καὶ μὴ ἀποκάμνωσι διὰ μαλακίαν τῆς ψυχῆς.
First of all, by the superior ones, I do not mean shoemakers or cooks, but those who are wise in the affairs of the city, in what way it may be well governed, and not only wise but also courageous, being capable of carrying out what they have conceived, and not flagging through softness of soul.
ΣΩ. ὁρᾷς, ὦ βέλτιστε Καλλίκλεις, ὡς οὐ ταὐτὰ σύ τʼ ἐμοῦ κατηγορεῖς καὶ ἐγὼ σοῦ;
SOCRATES: You see, my excellent Callicles, how you and I do not accuse each other of the same things?
σὺ μὲν γὰρ ἐμὲ φῂς ἀεὶ ταὐτὰ λέγειν, καὶ μέμφῃ μοι·
For you say that I always say the same things, and you blame me; but I, on the contrary, blame you because you never say the same things about the same things.
ἐγὼ δὲ σοῦ τοὐναντίον, ὅτι οὐδέποτε ταὐτὰ λέγεις περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν, ἀλλὰ τοτὲ μὲν τοὺς βελτίους τε καὶ κρείττους τοὺς ἰσχυροτέρους ὡρίζου, αὖθις δὲ τοὺς φρονιμωτέρους, νῦν δʼ αὖ ἕτερόν τι ἥκεις ἔχων·
At one time you defined the better and superior as the stronger, next as the wiser, and now again you have come with something else; the superior and better are now said by you to be the more courageous.
ἀνδρειότεροί τινες ὑπὸ σοῦ λέγονται οἱ κρείττους καὶ οἱ βελτίους. ἀλλʼ, ὠγαθέ, εἰπὼν ἀπαλλάγηθι τίνας ποτὲ λέγεις τοὺς βελτίους τε καὶ κρείττους καὶ εἰς ὅτι.
But, my good friend, speak once and for all and make it clear: who on earth do you say the better and superior are, and in what?
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλʼ εἴρηκά γε ἔγωγε τοὺς φρονίμους εἰς τὰ τῆς πόλεως πράγματα καὶ ἀνδρείους.
CALLICLES: Why, I have indeed said they are those who are wise and courageous in the affairs of the city.
τούτους γὰρ προσήκει τῶν πόλεων ἄρχειν, καὶ τὸ δίκαιον τοῦτʼ ἐστίν, πλέον ἔχειν τούτους τῶν ἄλλων, τοὺς ἄρχοντας τῶν ἀρχομένων.
For it belongs to these to rule the cities, and this is what is just, that these should have more than the others, the rulers more than the ruled.
ΣΩ. τί δέ;
SOCRATES: But what about themselves, my friend?
αὑτῶν, ὦ ἑταῖρε, τί;
What are they?
ἦ τι ἄρχοντας ἢ ἀρχομένους;
Are they rulers or ruled?
ΚΑΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CALLICLES: What do you mean?
ΣΩ. ἕνα ἕκαστον λέγω αὐτὸν ἑαυτοῦ ἄρχοντα·
SOCRATES: I mean each single one ruling himself.
ἢ τοῦτο μὲν οὐδὲν δεῖ, αὐτὸν ἑαυτοῦ ἄρχειν, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων;
Or is there no need for this, to rule oneself, but only to rule others?
ΚΑΛ. πῶς ἑαυτοῦ ἄρχοντα λέγεις;
CALLICLES: What do you mean by ruling himself?
ΣΩ. οὐδὲν ποικίλον ἀλλʼ ὥσπερ οἱ πολλοί, σώφρονα ὄντα καὶ ἐγκρατῆ αὐτὸν ἑαυτοῦ, τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ἄρχοντα τῶν ἐν ἑαυτῷ.
SOCRATES: Nothing complicated, but just as the many say: being temperate and self-controlled, ruling the pleasures and desires within himself.
ΚΑΛ. ὡς ἡδὺς εἶ·
CALLICLES: How pleasant you are!
τοὺς ἠλιθίους λέγεις τοὺς σώφρονας.
You mean the fools by 'the temperate'.
ΣΩ. πῶς γὰρ;
SOCRATES: How so?
οὐδεὶς ὅστις οὐκ ἂν γνοίη ὅτι οὐ τοῦτο λέγω.
There is no one who would not know that I do not mean this.