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Plato · Gorgias §488

Examining Definitions of the Stronger and Better

Passage 28 of 53 · Greek

Summary

Socrates welcomes Callicles' advice on life while reinvestigating the premise of Callicles' and Pindar's argument that the rule of the stronger is natural justice, asking whether 'superior', 'better', and 'stronger' mean the same thing.

§488ΣΩ. πάντων δὲ καλλίστη ἐστὶν ἡ σκέψις, ὦ Καλλίκλεις, περὶ τούτων ὧν σὺ δή μοι ἐπετίμησας, ποῖόν τινα χρὴ εἶναι τὸν ἄνδρα καὶ τί ἐπιτηδεύειν καὶ μέχρι τοῦ, καὶ πρεσβύτερον καὶ νεώτερον ὄντα.
SOCRATES: And of all inquiries, Callicles, the most beautiful is that about those very things for which you rebuked me: what sort of man one ought to be, and what to practice, and up to what point, both when one is older and when one is younger.
ἐγὼ γὰρ εἴ τι μὴ ὀρθῶς πράττω κατὰ τὸν βίον τὸν ἐμαυτοῦ, εὖ ἴσθι τοῦτο ὅτι οὐχ ἑκὼν ἐξαμαρτάνω ἀλλʼ ἀμαθίᾳ τῇ ἐμῇ· σὺ οὖν, ὥσπερ ἤρξω νουθετεῖν με, μὴ ἀποστῇς, ἀλλʼ ἱκανῶς μοι ἔνδειξαι τί ἔστιν τοῦτο ὃ ἐπιτηδευτέον μοι, καὶ τίνα τρόπον κτησαίμην ἂν αὐτό, καὶ ἐάν με λάβῃς νῦν μέν σοι ὁμολογήσαντα, ἐν δὲ τῷ ὑστέρῳ χρόνῳ μὴ ταὐτὰ πράττοντα ἅπερ ὡμολόγησα, πάνυ με ἡγοῦ βλᾶκα εἶναι καὶ μηκέτι ποτέ με νουθετήσῃς ὕστερον, ὡς μηδενὸς ἄξιον ὄντα.
For if I do anything not rightly in my own life, know well that I do not err willingly but through my own ignorance; you, therefore, just as you began to admonish me, do not draw back, but show me sufficiently what this is which I must practice, and in what way I might acquire it; and if you catch me now agreeing with you, but in later time not doing the same things which I agreed to, consider me an utter blockhead and never admonish me any more hereafter, as one who is worth nothing.
ἐξ ἀρχῆς δέ μοι ἐπανάλαβε πῶς φῂς τὸ δίκαιον ἔχειν καὶ σὺ καὶ Πίνδαρος τὸ κατὰ φύσιν;
But repeat to me from the beginning: how do you and Pindar say that justice according to nature stands?
ἄγειν βίᾳ τὸν κρείττω τὰ τῶν ἡττόνων καὶ ἄρχειν τὸν βελτίω τῶν χειρόνων καὶ πλέον ἔχειν τὸν ἀμείνω τοῦ φαυλοτέρου;
That the stronger carries off by force the possessions of the weaker, and the better rules the worse, and the superior has more than the inferior?
μή τι ἄλλο λέγεις τὸ δίκαιον εἶναι, ἢ ὀρθῶς μέμνημαι;
Do you say that justice is something else, or do I remember rightly?
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλὰ ταῦτα ἔλεγον καὶ τότε καὶ νῦν λέγω.
CALLICLES: Why, I was saying those things then, and now I say them.
ΣΩ. πότερον δὲ τὸν αὐτὸν βελτίω καλεῖς σὺ καὶ κρείττω;
SOCRATES: And do you call the same person both 'better' and 'superior'?
οὐδὲ γάρ τοι τότε οἷός τʼ ἦ μαθεῖν σου τί ποτε λέγοις.
For indeed, even then I was not able to learn from you what you might mean.
πότερον τοὺς ἰσχυροτέρους κρείττους καλεῖς καὶ δεῖ ἀκροᾶσθαι τοῦ ἰσχυροτέρου τοὺς ἀσθενεστέρους, οἷόν μοι δοκεῖς καὶ τότε ἐνδείκνυσθαι, ὡς αἱ μεγάλαι πόλεις ἐπὶ τὰς σμικρὰς κατὰ τὸ φύσει δίκαιον ἔρχονται, ὅτι κρείττους εἰσὶν καὶ ἰσχυρότεραι, ὡς τὸ κρεῖττον καὶ τὸ ἰσχυρότερον καὶ βέλτιον ταὐτὸν ὄν, ἢ ἔστι βελτίω μὲν εἶναι, ἥττω δὲ καὶ ἀσθενέστερον, καὶ κρείττω μὲν εἶναι, μοχθηρότερον δέ·
Whether you call the stronger 'superior' and the weaker must listen to the stronger—just as you seemed to me to indicate then, that the large cities attack the small ones according to natural justice because they are superior and stronger, as if the superior, the stronger, and the better were the same thing—or is it possible to be better, but inferior and weaker, and to be superior, but more wretched?
ἢ ὁ αὐτὸς ὅρος ἐστὶν τοῦ βελτίονος καὶ τοῦ κρείττονος;
Or is the same definition applicable to both the better and the superior?
τοῦτό μοι αὐτὸ σαφῶς διόρισον, ταὐτὸν ἢ ἕτερόν ἐστιν τὸ κρεῖττον καὶ τὸ βέλτιον καὶ τὸ ἰσχυρότερον;
Define this very thing clearly for me: are the superior, the better, and the stronger the same or different?
ΚΑΛ. ἀλλʼ ἐγώ σοι σαφῶς λέγω, ὅτι ταὐτόν ἐστιν.
CALLICLES: Well, I tell you clearly that it is the same.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν οἱ πολλοὶ τοῦ ἑνὸς κρείττους εἰσὶν κατὰ φύσιν;
SOCRATES: Are not the many, then, superior to the one according to nature?
οἳ δὴ καὶ τοὺς νόμους τίθενται ἐπὶ τῷ ἑνί, ὥσπερ καὶ σὺ ἄρτι ἔλεγες.
They who indeed also set down the laws for the one, just as you yourself were saying just now.
ΚΑΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CALLICLES: Of course.
ΣΩ. τὰ τῶν πολλῶν ἄρα νόμιμα τὰ τῶν κρειττόνων ἐστίν.
SOCRATES: Therefore the regulations of the many are those of the superior.
ΚΑΛ. πάνυ γε.
CALLICLES: Certainly.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὰ τῶν βελτιόνων;
SOCRATES: Are they not, then, those of the better?
οἱ γὰρ κρείττους βελτίους πολὺ κατὰ τὸν σὸν λόγον.
For the superior are far better according to your argument.
ΚΑΛ. ναί.
CALLICLES: Yes.
ΣΩ. οὐκοῦν τὰ τούτων νόμιμα κατὰ φύσιν καλά, κρειττόνων γε ὄντων;
SOCRATES: Are not the regulations of these, then, beautiful according to nature, since they are indeed superior?
ΚΑΛ. φημί.
CALLICLES: I say so.

Notes

  1. 488aὧν — Attraction of the relative pronoun. Due to the influence of the antecedent τούτων (genitive), the pronoun, which should originally be in the accusative ἅ as the direct object of ἐπετίμησας, has been attracted into the genitive ὧν.
  2. 488aμέχρι τοῦ — τοῦ is the genitive form of the interrogative pronoun τίς, τί (= τίνος), governed by the preposition μέχρι (until, up to). It means 'up to what point' or 'to what extent'.
  3. 488bλάβῃς ... ὁμολογήσαντα — The verb λαμβάνω (to catch, find) is used with an object (here the accusative personal pronoun me) and a participle ὁμολογήσαντα (having agreed) to form a supplementary participle construction meaning 'to catch someone doing something'.
  4. 488cὡς ... ταὐτὸν ὄν — The participle ὄν, introduced by the conjunction ὡς (as if), agrees with the nominative or accusative noun phrase (τὸ κρεῖττον...) to express a subjective belief or assumption explaining the preceding clause ('on the ground that they are the same').

Cite this passage

Plato, Gorgias §488. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg023.humanitext-grc2:488

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