Humanitext Reader

Plato · Euthydemus §302

The Definition of Ownership and Disposing of the Gods

Passage 22 of 25 · Greek

Summary

Dionysodorus corners Socrates with a sophistical argument: by defining ownership as the right to dispose of an animal, and getting Socrates to agree that his gods are living beings (animals) belonging to him, Dionysodorus implies that Socrates has the right to sell or sacrifice his own gods.

§302ΣΩ. ἆρʼ οὖν, ἔφη, ταῦτα ἡγῇ σὰ εἶναι, ὧν ἂν ἄρξῃς καὶ ἐξῇ σοι αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι ὅτι ἂν βούλῃ;
SOCRATES: 'Are these then,' he said, 'the things you think are yours, over which you rule and which it is permitted to you to use in whatever way you wish?
οἷον βοῦς καὶ πρόβατον, ἆρʼ ἂν ἡγοῖο ταῦτα σὰ εἶναι, ἅ σοι ἐξείη καὶ ἀποδόσθαι καὶ δοῦναι καὶ θῦσαι ὅτῳ βούλοιο θεῶν;
For example, an ox and a sheep, would you think these are yours, which it would be permitted to you both to sell, and to give, and to sacrifice to whichever of the gods you wished?
ἃ δʼ ἂν μὴ οὕτως ἔχῃ, οὐ σά; κἀγώ (ᾔδη γὰρ ὅτι ἐξ αὐτῶν καλόν τι ἀνακύψοιτο τῶν ἐρωτημάτων, καὶ ἅμα βουλόμενος ὅτι τάχιστʼ ἀκοῦσαι) πάνυ μὲν οὖν, ἔφην, οὕτως ἔχει· τὰ τοιαῦτά ἐστιν μόνα ἐμά. — τί δέ;
And those which are not so, are they not yours?' And I (for I knew that something beautiful would emerge from these questions, and at the same time wishing to hear it as quickly as possible) said, 'By all means, it is so; only such things are mine.'— 'What then?' he said.
ζῷα, ἔφη, οὐ ταῦτα καλεῖς ἃ ἂν ψυχὴν ἔχῃ; ναί, ἔφην. — ὁμολογεῖς οὖν τῶν ζῴων ταῦτα μόνα εἶναι σά, περὶ ἃ ἄν σοι ἐξουσία ᾖ πάντα ταῦτα ποιεῖν ἃ νυνδὴ ἐγὼ ἔλεγον; —ὁμολογῶ. —καὶ ὅς, εἰρωνικῶς πάνυ ἐπισχὼν ὥς τι μέγα σκοπούμενος, εἰπέ μοι, ἔφη, ὦ Σώκρατες, ἔστιν σοι Ζεὺς πατρῷος; —καὶ ἐγὼ ὑποπτεύσας ἥξειν τὸν λόγον οἷπερ ἐτελεύτησεν, ἄπορόν τινα στροφὴν ἔφευγόν τε καὶ ἐστρεφόμην ἤδη ὥσπερ ἐν δικτύῳ εἰλημμένος· οὐκ ἔστιν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε. — ταλαίπωρος ἄρα τις σύ γε ἄνθρωπος εἶ καὶ οὐδὲ Ἀθηναῖος, ᾧ μήτε θεοὶ πατρῷοί εἰσιν μήτε ἱερὰ μήτε ἄλλο μηδὲν καλὸν καὶ ἀγαθόν. —ἔα, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε, εὐφήμει τε καὶ μὴ χαλεπῶς με προδίδασκε.
'Do you not call those things animals which have a soul?' 'Yes,' I said.— 'Do you agree, then, that of animals only those are yours, concerning which you have the authority to do all these things that I was just now saying?' '—I agree.' And he, pausing very ironically as if contemplating something great, said, 'Tell me, O Socrates, is there a paternal Zeus for you?' —And I, suspecting that the argument would arrive where it ended, was already seeking some escape route and twisting about as if caught in a net, and said, 'There is not, O Dionysodorus.'— 'A wretched man you must be then,' he said, ' and not even an Athenian, to whom there are neither paternal gods, nor sanctuaries, nor any other beautiful and good thing.' —'Hush,' I said, 'O Dionysodorus, speak auspiciously and do not teach me so harshly.
ἔστι γὰρ ἔμοιγε καὶ βωμοὶ καὶ ἱερὰ οἰκεῖα καὶ πατρῷα καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ὅσαπερ τοῖς ἄλλοις Ἀθηναίοις τῶν τοιούτων. — εἶτα τοῖς ἄλλοις, ἔφη, Ἀθηναίοις οὐκ ἔστιν Ζεὺς ὁ πατρῷος; —οὐκ ἔστιν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, αὕτη ἡ ἐπωνυμία Ἰώνων οὐδενί, οὔθʼ ὅσοι ἐκ τῆσδε τῆς πόλεως ἀπῳκισμένοι εἰσὶν οὔθʼ ἡμῖν, ἀλλὰ Ἀπόλλων πατρῷος διὰ τὴν τοῦ Ἴωνος γένεσιν·
For indeed I have both altars and private and ancestral sanctuaries, and all the other things of that kind which other Athenians have.'— 'Then,' he said, 'is there not a paternal Zeus for the other Athenians?' —'There is not,' I said, 'this title for any of the Ionians, neither those who have migrated from this city nor for us, but Apollo is our ancestral god on account of the birth of Ion.
Ζεὺς δʼ ἡμῖν πατρῷος μὲν οὐ καλεῖται, ἕρκειος δὲ καὶ φράτριος, καὶ Ἀθηναία φρατρία. — ἀλλʼ ἀρκεῖ γʼ, ἔφη ὁ Διονυσόδωρος· ἔστιν γάρ σοι, ὡς ἔοικεν, Ἀπόλλων τε καὶ Ζεὺς καὶ Ἀθηνᾶ. —πάνυ, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. — οὐκοῦν καὶ οὗτοι σοὶ θεοὶ ἂν εἶεν; ἔφη. —πρόγονοι, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, καὶ δεσπόται. — ἀλλʼ οὖν σοί γε, ἔφη·
Zeus is not called ancestral among us, but of the courtyard and of the phratry, and Athena is of the phratry.'— 'But indeed it is enough,' Dionysodorus said, 'for there are for you, as it seems, Apollo, Zeus, and Athena.' —'Certainly,' I said.— 'Therefore these also would be gods for you?' he said.—'Ancestors,' I said, 'and masters.'— 'But at any rate they are yours,' he said.
ἢ οὐ σοὺς ὡμολόγηκας αὐτοὺς εἶναι;
'Or did you not agree that they are yours?' —'I agree,' I said.
—ὡμολόγηκα, ἔφην· τί γὰρ πάθω; — οὐκοῦν, ἔφη, καὶ ζῷά εἰσιν οὗτοι οἱ θεοί;
'For what choice do I have?'— 'Therefore,' he said, 'are these gods also animals?
ὡμολόγηκας γὰρ ὅσα ψυχὴν ἔχει ζῷα εἶναι.
For you agreed that whatever things have a soul are animals.
ἢ οὗτοι οἱ θεοὶ οὐκ ἔχουσιν ψυχήν; —ἔχουσιν, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ. — οὐκοῦν καὶ ζῷά εἰσιν; —ζῷα, ἔφην. — τῶν δέ γε ζῴων, ἔφη, ὡμολόγηκας ταῦτʼ εἶναι σά, ὅσα ἄν σοι ἐξῇ καὶ δοῦναι καὶ ἀποδόσθαι καὶ θῦσαι δὴ θεῷ ὅτῳ ἂν βούλῃ. —ὡμολόγηκα, ἔφην· οὐκ ἔστιν γάρ μοι ἀνάδυσις, ὦ Εὐθύδημε.
Or do these gods not have a soul?' —'They have,' I said.— 'Therefore are they also animals?' —'Animals,' I said.— 'And indeed, of animals,' he said, 'you agreed that those are yours, which it would be permitted to you both to give and to sell, and indeed to sacrifice to whatever god you wished.' —'I agree,' I said, 'for there is no backing out for me, O Euthydemus.'

Notes

  1. 302aὧν ἂν ἄρξῃς καὶ ἐξῇ σοι αὐτοῖς χρῆσθαι ὅτι ἂν βούλῃ — The relative pronoun ὧν is governed by the verb ἄρξῃς (ruling over, taking the genitive), but also serves as the object of the infinitive χρῆσθαι (to use, which requires the dative); to resolve this double construction, the dative pronoun αὐτοῖς is explicitly inserted.
  2. 302bκαὶ ἐγὼ ὑποπτεύσας ἥξειν τὸν λόγον οἷπερ ἐτελεύτησεν — The past-tense verb ἐτελεύτησεν ('where it ended') reflects the retrospective narrative viewpoint of Socrates, who is recounting the dialogue after it has already taken place and concluded.
  3. 302dτί γὰρ πάθω; — The aorist subjunctive πάθω is a deliberative subjunctive expressing helplessness or resignation in the face of an inevitable conclusion, functioning as an idiomatic expression meaning 'For what choice do I have?' or 'What else can I do?'
  4. 302eοὐκ ἔστιν γάρ μοι ἀνάδυσις — The noun ἀνάδυσις, literally meaning 'emergence' or 'retreating (as from water),' is used metaphorically here to refer to a 'way out' or 'escape route' from the logical net cast by the sophists.

Cite this passage

Plato, Euthydemus §302. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg021.humanitext-grc2:302

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