§300ΣΩ.
πότερον δὲ ὁρῶσιν,
ἔφη ὁ Εὐθύδημος,
καὶ Σκύθαι τε καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ἄνθρωποι τὰ δυνατὰ ὁρᾶν ἢ τὰ ἀδύνατα; —
τὰ δυνατὰ δήπου.
SOCRATES: 'But indeed,' Euthydemus said, 'do the Scythians and other humans see things that are capable of seeing, or things that are incapable?' '—Things capable, surely.' '—Therefore you also see?' he said.
—
οὐκοῦν καὶ σύ,
ἔφη; —
κἀγώ. —
ὁρᾷς οὖν τὰ ἡμέτερα ἱμάτια; —
ναί. —
δυνατὰ οὖν ὁρᾶν ἐστὶν ταῦτα. —
ὑπερφυῶς,
ἔφη ὁ Κτήσιππος.
'—I too.' '—Do you see our cloaks?' '—Yes.' '—Are these, then, capable of seeing?' '—Wonderfully so,' said Ctesippus.
—
τί δέ; ἦ δʼ ὅς.
'—What then do they see?' he said.
—
μηδέν.
'—Nothing.
σὺ δὲ ἴσως οὐκ οἴει αὐτὰ ὁρᾶν· οὕτως ἡδὺς εἶ.
But perhaps you don't think they see; so sweet you are.
ἀλλά μοι δοκεῖς, Εὐθύδημε, οὐ καθεύδων ἐπικεκοιμῆσθαι καί, εἰ οἷόν τε λέγοντα μηδὲν λέγειν, καὶ σὺ τοῦτο ποιεῖν. ἦ γὰρ οὐχ οἷόν τʼ,
ἔφη ὁ Διονυσόδωρος,
σιγῶντα λέγειν; —
οὐδʼ ὁπωστιοῦν,
ἦ δʼ ὃς ὁ Κτήσιππος.
But you seem to me, O Euthydemus, not sleeping but having fallen asleep, and, if it is possible speaking to say nothing, you also do this.' 'For indeed is it not possible,' Dionysodorus said, 'for a silent person to speak?' '—Not in any way,' said Ctesippus.
—
ἆρʼ οὐδὲ λέγοντα σιγᾶν; —
ἔτι ἧττον,
ἔφη.
'—Nor for a speaking person to keep silent?' '—Still less,' he said.
—
ὅταν οὖν λίθους λέγῃς καὶ ξύλα καὶ σιδήρια, οὐ σιγῶντα λέγεις; —
οὔκουν εἴ γε ἐγώ,
ἔφη,
παρέρχομαι ἐν τοῖς χαλκείοις, ἀλλὰ φθεγγόμενα καὶ βοῶντα μέγιστον τὰ σιδήρια λέγεται, ἐάν τις ἅψηται· ὥστε τοῦτο μὲν ὑπὸ σοφίας ἔλαθες οὐδὲν εἰπών.
'—When then you speak of stones and woods and irons, do you not speak of silent things?' '—Not indeed if I,' he said, 'pass by the blacksmiths' shops, but the irons are said to speak and cry out very loudly if someone touches them; so you have failed to say anything by your wisdom.
ἀλλʼ ἔτι μοι τὸ ἕτερον ἐπιδείξατον, ὅπως αὖ ἔστιν λέγοντα σιγᾶν. καί μοι ἐδόκει ὑπεραγωνιᾶν ὁ Κτήσιππος διὰ τὰ παιδικά.
But show me the other thing, how again it is possible for a speaking person to keep silent.' And Ctesippus seemed to me to be extremely anxious on account of his beloved.
ὅταν σιγᾷς,
ἔφη ὁ Εὐθύδημος,
οὐ πάντα σιγᾷς; —
ἔγωγε,
ἦ δʼ ὅς.
'When you are silent,' said Euthydemus, 'do you not keep silent about all things?' '—I indeed do,' he said.
—
οὐκοῦν καὶ τὰ λέγοντα σιγᾷς, εἴπερ τῶν ἁπάντων ἐστὶν. —
τί δέ; ἔφη ὁ Κτήσιππος,
οὐ σιγᾷ πάντα; —
οὐ δήπου,
ἔφη ὁ Εὐθύδημος.
'—Therefore you also keep silent about the speaking things, if indeed they are among all things.' '—What?' said Ctesippus, 'do not all things keep silent?' '—Surely not,' said Euthydemus.
—
ἀλλʼ ἄρα, ὦ βέλτιστε, λέγει τὰ πάντα; —
τά γε δήπου λέγοντα. —
ἀλλά,
ἦ δʼ ὅς,
οὐ τοῦτο ἐρωτῶ, ἀλλὰ τὰ πάντα σιγᾷ ἢ λέγει; οὐδέτερα καὶ ἀμφότερα,
ἔφη ὑφαρπάσας ὁ Διονυσόδωρος· εὖ γὰρ οἶδα ὅτι τῇ ἀποκρίσει οὐχ ἕξεις ὅτι χρῇ. καὶ ὁ Κτήσιππος, ὥσπερ εἰώθει, μέγα πάνυ ἀνακαγχάσας,
ὦ Εὐθύδημε,
ἔφη,
ὁ ἀδελφός σου ἐξημφοτέρικεν τὸν λόγον, καὶ ἀπόλωλέ τε καὶ ἥττηται. καὶ ὁ Κλεινίας πάνυ ἥσθη καὶ ἐγέλασεν, ὥστε ὁ Κτήσιππος ἐγένετο πλεῖον ἢ δεκαπλάσιος.
'—But then, my good man, do all things speak?' '—The speaking things, surely.' '—But,' he said, 'I don't ask this, but do all things keep silent or speak?' 'Neither and both,' said Dionysodorus, snatching the word; 'for I well know that you will not know what to do with the answer.' And Ctesippus, as was his custom, laughing out very loud, said, 'O Euthydemus, your brother has made the argument go both ways, and he is ruined and defeated.' And Cleinias was very pleased and laughed, so that Ctesippus became ten times larger.
ὁ δέ μοι δοκεῖ ἅτε πανοῦργος ὤν, ὁ Κτήσιππος, παρʼ αὐτῶν τούτων αὐτὰ ταῦτα παρηκηκόει· οὐ γάρ ἐστιν ἄλλων τοιαύτη σοφία τῶν νῦν ἀνθρώπων.
But Ctesippus, as it seems to me, being a rogue, had overheard these very things from these very men; for there is no other such wisdom among men of today.
κἀγὼ εἶπον· τί γελᾷς, ὦ Κλεινία, ἐπὶ σπουδαίοις οὕτω πράγμασιν καὶ καλοῖς; σὺ γὰρ ἤδη τι πώποτʼ εἶδες, ὦ Σώκρατες, καλὸν πρᾶγμα; ἔφη ὁ Διονυσόδωρος.
And I said: 'Why do you laugh, O Cleinias, at such serious and beautiful things?' 'Have you ever seen any beautiful thing, O Socrates?' said Dionysodorus.
ἔγωγε, ἔφην, καὶ πολλά γε, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε.
'—I indeed have, and many indeed, O Dionysodorus,' I said.
§301ΣΩ.
ἆρα ἕτερα ὄντα τοῦ καλοῦ,
ἔφη,
ἢ ταὐτὰ τῷ καλῷ; κἀγὼ ἐν παντὶ ἐγενόμην ὑπὸ ἀπορίας, καὶ ἡγούμην δίκαια πεπονθέναι ὅτι ἔγρυξα, ὅμως δὲ ἕτερα ἔφην αὐτοῦ γε τοῦ καλοῦ· πάρεστιν μέντοι ἑκάστῳ αὐτῶν κάλλος τι.
'Are they other than the beautiful,' he said, 'or the same as the beautiful?' And I was in every way in difficulty under my perplexity, and I thought I had suffered justly because I had grunted, but nevertheless I said they were other than the beautiful itself, but nevertheless there is present to each of them some beauty.
ἐὰν οὖν,
ἔφη,
παραγένηταί σοι βοῦς, βοῦς εἶ, καὶ ὅτι νῦν ἐγώ σοι πάρειμι, Διονυσόδωρος εἶ;
'If then,' he said, 'an ox is present to you, are you an ox?
εὐφήμει τοῦτό γε, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
And because I am now present to you, are you Dionysodorus?' 'Keep quiet about this, at least!' I said.
ἀλλὰ τίνα τρόπον,
ἔφη,
ἑτέρου ἑτέρῳ παραγενομένου τὸ ἕτερον ἕτερον ἂν εἴη; ἆρα τοῦτο, ἔφην ἐγώ, ἀπορεῖς;
'But in what way,' he said, 'when one thing is present to another, would the other be other?' 'Are you in doubt about this?' I said.
ἤδη δὲ τοῖν ἀνδροῖν τὴν σοφίαν ἐπεχείρουν μιμεῖσθαι, ἅτε ἐπιθυμῶν αὐτῆς.
And already I was attempting to imitate the wisdom of the two men, since I desired it.
πῶς γὰρ οὐκ ἀπορῶ,
ἔφη,
καὶ ἐγὼ καὶ οἱ ἄλλοι ἅπαντες ἄνθρωποι ὃ μὴ ἔστι; τί λέγεις, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε;
'How indeed should I not be in doubt,' he said, 'and I and all other humans, about what is not?' 'What do you say, O Dionysodorus?
οὐ τὸ καλὸν καλόν ἐστιν καὶ τὸ αἰσχρὸν αἰσχρόν; —
ἐὰν ἔμοιγε,
ἔφη,
δοκῇ.
Is not the beautiful beautiful, and the ugly ugly?' '—If indeed it seems so to me,' he said.
—οὐκοῦν δοκεῖ; —
πάνυ γʼ,
ἔφη.
'—And does it not seem so?' '—Very much so,' he said.
—οὐκοῦν καὶ τὸ ταὐτὸν ταὐτὸν καὶ τὸ ἕτερον ἕτερον;
'—Therefore is not the same same, and the other other?
οὐ γὰρ δήπου τό γε ἕτερον ταὐτόν, ἀλλʼ ἔγωγε οὐδʼ ἂν παῖδα ᾤμην τοῦτο ἀπορῆσαι, ὡς οὐ τὸ ἕτερον ἕτερόν ἐστιν. ἀλλʼ, ὦ Διονυσόδωρε, τοῦτο μὲν ἑκὼν παρῆκας, ἐπεὶ τὰ ἄλλα μοι δοκεῖτε ὥσπερ οἱ δημιουργοὶ οἷς ἕκαστα προσήκει ἀπεργάζεσθαι, καὶ ὑμεῖς τὸ διαλέγεσθαι παγκάλως ἀπεργάζεσθαι.
For surely the other is not the same; but I indeed would not have thought even a child would doubt this, that the other is other.
οἶσθα οὖν,
ἔφη,
ὅτι προσήκει ἑκάστοις τῶν δημιουργῶν; πρῶτον τίνα χαλκεύειν προσήκει, οἶσθα;
But, O Dionysodorus, you have let this pass willingly, since in other things you seem to me, like the craftsmen to whom it belongs to work out each thing, you also work out discussing beautifully.' 'Do you know then,' he said, 'what belongs to each of the craftsmen?
—ἔγωγε· ὅτι χαλκέα. —
τί δέ, κεραμεύειν; —κεραμέα. —
τί δέ, σφάττειν τε καὶ ἐκδέρειν καὶ τὰ μικρὰ κρέα κατακόψαντα ἕψειν καὶ ὀπτᾶν; μάγειρον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ.
First, to whom does it belong to work in bronze, do you know?' '—I do; to a blacksmith.' '—And what of making pottery?' '—To a potter.' '—And what of slaughtering, skinning, and hacking the small pieces of meat to boil and roast them?' 'To a cook,' I said.
—
οὐκοῦν ἐάν τις,
ἔφη,
τὰ προσήκοντα πράττῃ, ὀρθῶς πράξει; —μάλιστα. —
προσήκει δέ γε, ὡς φῄς, τὸν μάγειρον κατακόπτειν καὶ ἐκδέρειν;
'—Therefore, if someone,' he said, 'does what is fitting, will he do rightly?' '—Most certainly.' '—And is it fitting, as you say, for the cook to hack and skin?
ὡμολόγησας ταῦτα ἢ οὔ; —ὡμολόγησα, ἔφην, ἀλλὰ συγγνώμην μοι ἔχε. —
δῆλον τοίνυν,
ἦ δʼ ὅς,
ὅτι ἄν τις σφάξας τὸν μάγειρον καὶ κατακόψας ἑψήσῃ καὶ ὀπτήσῃ, τὰ προσήκοντα ποιήσει· καὶ ἐὰν τὸν χαλκέα τις αὐτὸν χαλκεύῃ καὶ τὸν κεραμέα κεραμεύῃ, καὶ οὗτος τὰ προσήκοντα πράξει. ὦ Πόσειδον, ἦν δʼ ἐγώ, ἤδη κολοφῶνα ἐπιτιθεῖς τῇ σοφίᾳ.
Did you agree to this or not?' '—I agreed,' I said, 'but have mercy on me.' '—It is clear then,' he said, 'that if someone slaughters the cook and hacks him, and boils and roasts him, he will do what is fitting; and if someone hammers the blacksmith himself and pots the potter, he also will do what is fitting.' 'O Poseidon,' I said, 'now you put the finishing stroke on your wisdom.
ἆρά μοί ποτε αὕτη παραγενήσεται ὥστε μοι οἰκεία γενέσθαι; ἐπιγνοίης ἂν αὐτήν, ὦ Σώκρατες,
ἔφη,
οἰκείαν γενομένην; ἐὰν σύ γε βούλῃ, ἔφην ἐγώ, δῆλον ὅτι. τί δέ,
ἦ δʼ ὅς,
τὰ σαυτοῦ οἴει γιγνώσκειν; εἰ μή τι σὺ ἄλλο λέγεις· ἀπὸ σοῦ γὰρ δεῖ ἄρχεσθαι, τελευτᾶν δʼ εἰς Εὐθύδημον τόνδε.
Will this ever be present to me so as to become my own?' 'Would you recognize it, O Socrates,' he said, 'when it has become your own?' '—If you indeed wish it,' I said, 'clearly yes.' '—And what?' he said, 'do you think you know your own things?' '—Unless you say something else; for one must begin from you, and end in Euthydemus here.'