§4AUG. dixit: Has animas, quas de morte ad uitam per Christum uenire fatemini, quae causa praecipitauit in mortem?
FORT. dixit: Hinc iam dignare prosequi et contraire, si nihil praeter deum. §5AUG. dixit: Immo tu dignare respondere id, quod interrogaris, has animas quae causa morti dederit. FORT. dixit: Immo tu dignare dicere, utrum aliquid sit praeter deum, an omnia in deo sunt.
Aug. said: "What cause plunged these souls into death, which you confess come from death to life through Christ?" Fort. said: "From here, now, deign to proceed and to argue against us, if there is nothing besides God." Aug. said: "Nay, rather deign to answer what you are asked: what cause gave these souls over to death." Fort. said: "Nay, rather deign to say whether there is anything besides God, or whether all things are in God." Aug. said: "I can answer that which the Lord wished me to know: that God can suffer no necessity, nor be violated or corrupted in any part.
§6AUG. dixit: Illud ego respondere possum, quod me dominus nosse uoluit deum necessitatem pati nullam posse neque ex aliqua parte uiolari atque corrumpi. quod cum tu quoque fatearis, quaero, qua necessitate huc miserit animas, quas dicis per Christum redire. FORT. dixit: Quod tu dixisti, quia huc usque tibi deus reuelauit, quod incorruptibilis sit, quemadmodum et mihi, ratio quaerenda est, quemadmodum animae aut ob quam causam istum in mundum uenerunt, ut merito nunc eas per unigenitum filium suum ac sui similem de hoc mundo liberaret, si nil praeter ipsum. _
Since you also confess this, I ask by what necessity He sent here the souls which you say return through Christ." Fort. said: "As for what you have said, because God has revealed to you up to this point that He is incorruptible, just as He has to me, the reason must be sought as to how or for what cause the souls came into this world, so that He might now deservedly free them from this world through His only-begotten Son, who is like Himself, if there is nothing besides Him." Aug. said: "We ought not to frustrate so many who are present, and go from the proposed question to another.
§7AUG. dixit: Non debemus frustrare tantos, qui praesentes sunt, et de quaestione proposita ire ad aliud. si confitemur ambo. si nobis concedimus esse incorruptibilem et inuiolabilem deum et nihil pati potuisse — ex quo est consequens, ut falsa sit haeresis uestra, quae dicit deum cum uideret inminere uastitatem ac labem regnis suis, misisse uirtutem, quae cum tenebrarum gente bellaret, et ex ea commixtione hic nostras animas laborare — breuis ergo est ratio mea et, quantum aestimo, cuiuis planissima.
If we both confess, if we grant to each other that God is incorruptible and inviolable and could suffer nothing — from which it follows that your heresy is false, which says that God, when He saw that ruin and devastation threatened His kingdoms, sent a "Virtue" to fight with the nation of darkness, and that from that mixture our souls labor here — then my reasoning is short and, as I estimate, clearest to anyone.
si deus nihil pati potuit a gente tenebrarum, quia inuiolabilis est, sine causa huc nos misit, ut nos hic aerumnas patiamur.
If God could suffer nothing from the nation of darkness, because He is inviolable, He sent us here without cause, so that we should suffer miseries here.
si autem aliquid pati potuit, non est inuiolabilis et decipitis eos, quibus dicitis esse inuiolabilem deum.
But if He could suffer something, He is not inviolable, and you deceive those to whom you say that God is inviolable.
hoc enim uestra haeresis negat, cum cetera exponitis. FORT. dixit: Hoc sentimus, quod nos instruit beatus apostolus Paulus, qui dixit: hoc sentite in uobis, quod et in Christo Iesu; qui cum in forma dei esset constitutus, non rapinam arbitratus est aequalem se esse deo, sed semet ipsum exinaniuit formam serui accipiens in similitudinem hominum factus et habitu inuentus ut homo; humiliauit semet ipsum, factus est subditus usque ad mortem. hoc ergo sentimus de nobis, quod et de Christo: qui cum in forma dei esset constitutus.
For your heresy denies this when you set forth the rest of your doctrines." Fort. said: "We believe this, which the blessed apostle Paul teaches us, who said: 'Have this mind in yourselves, which was also in Christ Jesus; who, though He was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men and found in human form as a man; He humbled Himself, becoming obedient even unto death.' This, therefore, we believe of ourselves, which we also believe of Christ: who, though He was in the form of God, became obedient even unto death, that He might show the likeness of our souls.
factus est subditus usque ad mortem, ut similitudinem animarum nostrarum ostenderet. et quemadmodum in se mortis similitudinem ostendit et patrem in se et in patre se esse de medio mortuorum resuscitatum, eo modo sentiamus et de animabus nostris futurum, quod per ipsum poterimus de hac morte liberari: quae aut aliena est a deo aut.
And just as He showed in Himself the likeness of death, and showed that the Father was in Him and He in the Father, and was raised from the midst of the dead, in that same way let us believe that it will happen to our souls, namely, that through Him we shall be able to be freed from this death.
si propria est dei, et misericordia eius cessat et liberatoris nomen et opera liberantis. §8AUG. dixit: Ego quaero, quemadmodum in mortem uenerimus. et tu dicis, quemadmodum de morte liberemur.
This death is either alien to God, or, if it is proper to God, then both His mercy ceases and the name of the liberator and the works of the one who frees." Aug. said: "I ask how we came into death, and you tell how we are freed from death." Fort. said: "The apostle spoke in this way regarding how we ought to think of our souls, which Christ showed to us.
FORT. dixit: Ita apostolus dixit, quomodo sentire debeamus de nostris animis, quod Christus nobis ostendit. si fuit Christus in passione et morte, et nos; si uoluntate patris descendit in passionem et mortem, et nos.
If Christ was in passion and death, so are we; if by the Father's will He descended into passion and death, so did we."