Opening debate on the nature of God versus moral conduct

Augustine said: "I now consider to be an error what I previously thought to be the truth; whether I judge correctly, I desire to hear from you in person." FORTUNATUS dixit: Coepta errorem exponere.

Fortunatus said: "Begin to set forth the error." AUGUSTINUS dixit: In primis summum errorem puto omnipotentem deum, in quo una nobis spes est, ex aliqua parte uiolabilem aut coinquinabilem aut corruptibilem credere. hoc uestram haeresim adfirmare scio, non quidem his uerbis, quibus nunc usus sum; nam et uos interrogati confitemini deum esse incorruptibilem et omni modo inuiolabilem et incoinquinabilem; sed cum coeperitis cetera exponere, cogimini eum corruptibilem, penetrabilem et coinquinabilem confiteri. dicitis enim aliam nescio quam gentem tenebrarum aduersus dei regnum rebellasse; deum autem omnipotentem cum uideret, quanta labes et uastitas inmineret regnis suis. nisi aliquid aduersae genti obponeret et ei resisteret, misisse hanc uirtutem, de cuius commixtione cum malo et tenebrarum gente mundus sit fabricatus; hinc esse. quod hic animae bonae laborant, seruiunt, errant, corrumpuntur, ut necessarium haberent liberatorem. qui eas ab errore purgaret et a commixtione solueret et a seruitute liberaret. hoc ego nefas puto credere deum omnipotentem aliquam aduersam gentem timuisse aut necessitatem esse passum, ut nos in aerumnas praecipitaret. Augustine said: "First and foremost, I consider it the greatest error to believe that Almighty God, in whom is our only hope, is in any part violable, or defilable, or corruptible. I know that your heresy asserts this, though indeed not in these words which I have just used; for you too, when questioned, confess that God is incorruptible and in every way inviolable and undefilable; but when you begin to set forth the rest of your doctrines, you are forced to confess that He is corruptible, penetrable, and defilable. For you say that some nation of darkness, I know not what, rebelled against the kingdom of God; and that when Almighty God saw what great ruin and devastation threatened His kingdoms, unless He opposed something to the hostile nation and resisted it, He sent this "Virtue", from whose mixture with evil and the nation of darkness the world was fashioned; and that from this it comes that good souls labor, serve, err, and are corrupted here, so that they stood in need of a liberator who should cleanse them from error, release them from this mixture, and free them from servitude. It seems to me a sacrilege to believe that Almighty God feared any hostile nation, or suffered a necessity that compelled Him to plunge us into miseries." FORTUNATUS dixit: Quia te medium fuisse nostrum scio. id est inter Manichaeos administrasse, ista principalia sunt fidei nostrae. de conuersatione hic agitur, de quibus falsis criminibus pulsamur. ex te ergo praesentes audiant boni uiri. utrum sint uera, super quibus criminamur et adpetimur, an sint falsa. etenim ex tua doctrina et ex tua expositione et ostensione poterunt uero uerius scire nostram conuersationem. si a te fuerit prodita. interfuisti orationi? Fortunatus said: "Since I know that you have been in our midst, that is, you ministered among the Manichaeans, these are indeed the principal points of our faith. But here the question is about our conduct, on account of which false accusations we are being attacked. Therefore, let the good men who are present hear from you whether the things for which we are accused and attacked are true or false. For indeed, from your teaching, your explanation, and your showing, they will be able to know our conduct more truly than truth itself, if it is disclosed by you. Were you present at our prayer?" AUG. dixit: Interfui. sed alia quaestio est de fide, alia de moribus; ego de fide proposui. sed si illi, qui adsunt malunt audire de moribus, nec ipsam quaestionem defugio. Aug. said: "I was present. But the question of faith is one thing, and that of morals is another; I proposed a discussion concerning faith. But if those who are present prefer to hear about morals, I do not shrink from that question either." FORT. dixit: Purgare me prius uolo penes conscientiam uestram, penes quos polluimur, ex idonei uiri testimonio, qui mihi et nunc idoneus est et in futura iusti iudicii examinatione Christi, si ea, quae iactantur, uidit in nobis uel consecutus est.

Fort. said: "I wish first to clear myself before your conscience, in whose eyes we are defiled, on the testimony of a suitable man who is suitable for me both now and in the future examination of the righteous judgment of Christ, as to whether he saw or found in us those things which are bandied about." AUG. dixit: Ad aliud uocas, cum ego de fide proposuerim. de moribus autem uestris plene scire possunt, qui electi uestri sunt. nostis autem me non electum uestrum, sed auditorem fuisse. itaque quamuis et orationi uestrae interfuerim, ut interrogasti, utrum separatim uobiscum habeatis aliquam orationem, deus solus potest nosse et uos. ego tamen in oratione, in qua interfui, nihil turpe fieri uidi, sed solum contra fidem animaduerti. quam postea didici et probaui, quod contra solem facitis orationem. praeter hoc in illa oratione uestra nihil noui comperi. quisquis autem uobis obponet quaestionem aliquam de moribus, electis uestris obponit. quid autem inter uos agatis, qui electi estis, ego scire non possum. nam et eucharistiam audiui a uobis saepe quod accipiatis; tempus autem accipiendi cum me lateret, quid accipiatis unde nosse potui? itaque serua, si placet. quaestionem de moribus. ut inter electos uestros discutiatis. si discuti potest. mihi fides data est a uobis, quam hodie inprobo. de ipsa proposui. ad propositum meum mihi respondeatur.

Aug. said: "You call me to another subject, whereas I proposed a discussion concerning faith.

But concerning your morals, those who are your Elect can know fully.

Moreover, you know that I was not one of your Elect, but an Auditor.

Therefore, although I was present at your prayer, as you asked, whether you hold some prayer separately among yourselves, God alone can know, and you.

However, in the prayer at which I was present, I saw nothing shameful being done, but only noticed something contrary to the faith, which I afterwards learned and proved, namely, that you perform your prayer facing the sun.

Apart from this, I found nothing new in that prayer of yours.

But whoever brings against you some question concerning morals, brings it against your Elect.

But what you do among yourselves, who are the Elect, I cannot know.

For I have also often heard from you that you receive the Eucharist; but since the time of receiving was hidden from me, how could I know what you receive?

Therefore, leave, if you please, the question of morals, so that you may discuss it among your Elect, if it can be discussed.

To me was given by you the faith which today I disapprove.

I proposed a discussion concerning this itself.

Let me be answered according to my proposition." FORT. dixit: Et nostra professio ipsa est, quod incorruptibilis sit deus, quod lucidus, quod inadibilis, intenibilis, inpassibilis aeternam lucem et propriam habitet, quod nihil ex sese corruptibile proferat, nec tenebras nec daemones nec satanam, nec aliud aduersum in regno eius reperiri possit; sui similem saluatorem direxisse; uerbum natum a constitutione mundi cum mundum fabricaret, post mundi fabricam inter homines uenisse, dignas sibi animas elegisse sanctae suae uoluntati mandatis suis caelestibus sanctificatas, fide et ratione inbutas caelestium rerum ipso ductore hinc iterum easdem animas ad regnum dei reuersuras esse secundum sanctam ipsius pollicitationem, qui dixit: ego sum uia, ueritas et ianua et: nemo potest ad patrem peruenire, nisi per me. his rebus nos credimus, quia alias animae, id est alio mediante non poterunt ad regnum dei reuerti, nisi ipsum reppererint, ueritatem, uiam et ianuam. ipse enim dixit: qui me uidit, uidit et patrem et: qui in me crediderit, mortem non gustabit in aeternum, sed transitum faciet de morte ad uitam et in iudicium non ueniet. his rebus nos credimus et haec est ratio fidei nostrae et pro uiribus animi nostri mandatis eius obtemperare unam fidem sectantes huius trinitatis, patris et filii et spiritus sancti.

Fort. said: "And our profession itself is this: that God is incorruptible, that He is luminous, inaccessible, ungraspable, impassible, and inhabits an eternal and proper light; that He produces nothing corruptible from Himself, neither darkness, nor demons, nor Satan, and that nothing else hostile can be found in His kingdom; that He sent a Savior like Himself; that the Word, born from the foundation of the world when He fashioned the world, came among men after the fashioning of the world, chose souls worthy of Himself, sanctified to His holy will by His heavenly commandments, imbued with faith and reason of heavenly things under His own leadership; and that from here again these same souls will return to the kingdom of God according to His holy promise, who said: 'I am the way, the truth, and the door,' and: 'No one can come to the Father except through me.' In these things we believe, because otherwise souls, that is, through another mediator, will not be able to return to the kingdom of God, unless they have found Him, the truth, the way, and the door.

For He Himself said: 'He who has seen me, has seen the Father also,' and: 'He who believes in me shall not taste death forever, but shall make a transition from death to life and shall not come into judgment.' In these things we believe, and this is the reason of our faith, and according to the strength of our mind to obey His commandments, following the one faith of this Trinity, the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit."