§2.17.1finis non erit, si exspatiari in parte hac et indulgere voluptati velim.
There will be no end, if I should wish to expatiate on this part and indulge my pleasure.
transeamus igitur ad eam quaestionem, quae sequitur, an rhetorice ars sit.
Let us pass over therefore to that question which follows, whether rhetoric is an art.
§2.17.2quod quidem adeo ex iis, qui praecepta dicendi tradiderunt, nemo dubitavit, ut etiam ipsis librorum titulis testatum sit, scriptos eos de arte rhetorica; Cicero vero eam, quae rhetorice vocetur, esse artificiosam eloquentiam dicat.
Concerning which indeed, no one of those who have handed down the precepts of speaking has doubted, so that it is testified even by the very titles of their books that they were written about the art of rhetoric; while Cicero indeed says that that which is called rhetoric is artificial eloquence.
quod non oratores tantum vindicarunt, ut studiis aliquid suis praestitisse videantur, sed cum iis philosophi et Stoici et Peripatetici plerique consentiunt.
Which not only the orators have claimed, that they might seem to have contributed something to their studies, but with them the philosophers and most of the Stoics and Peripatetics agree.
§2.17.3ac me dubitasse confiteor, an hanc partem quaestionis tractandam putarem; nam quis est adeo non ab eruditione modo sed a sensu remotus hominis, ut fabricandi quidem et texendi et e luto vasa ducendi artem putet, rhetoricen autem, maximum ac pulcherrimum, ut supra diximus, opus, in tam sublime fastigium existimet sine arte venisse?
And I confess that I doubted whether I should think this part of the question ought to be treated; for who is so far removed not only from erudition but from the common sense of a man, as to think that the art of building and weaving and shaping vessels from clay is an art, but should estimate that rhetoric, the greatest and most beautiful work, as we have said above, has come to so sublime a height without art?
§2.17.4equidem illos, qui contra disputaverunt, non tam id sensisse quod dicerent, quam exercere ingenia materiae difficultate credo voluisse, sicut Polycraten, cum Busirim laudaret et Clytaemnestram; quanquam is, quod his dissimile non est, composuisse orationem, quae est habita contra Socraten, dicitur.
For my part, I believe that those who argued to the contrary did not so much think what they said, as wish to exercise their talents on the difficulty of the subject, just as Polycrates, when he praised Busiris and Clytemnestra; although he is said to have composed—which is not unlike these things—the speech which was delivered against Socrates.
§2.17.5quidam naturalem esse rhetoricen volunt et tamen adiuvari exercitatione non diffitentur, ut in libris Ciceronis de Oratore dicit Antonius, observationem quandam esse non artem.
Some will have it that rhetoric is natural, and yet they do not deny that it is assisted by practice, as Antonius says in Cicero's books *On the Orator*, that it is a certain observation, not an art.
§2.17.6quod non ideo, ut pro vero accipiamus, est positum, sed ut Antoni persona servetur, qui dissimulator artis fuit.
Which is placed there, not that we should accept it as true, but that the character of Antonius may be preserved, who was a dissembler of art.
hanc autem opinionem habuisse Lysias videtur.
And Lysias seems to have held this opinion.
cuius sententiae talis defensio est, quod indocti et barbari et servi, pro se cum loquuntur, aliquid dicant simile principio, narrent, probent, refutent, et (quod vim habeat epilogi) deprecentur.
Of which opinion the defense is such: that the unlearned, barbarians, and slaves, when they speak for themselves, say something similar to an introduction, narrate, prove, refute, and (what has the force of an epilogue) deprecate.
§2.17.7deinde adiiciunt illas verborum cavillationes, nihil, quod ex arte fiat, ante artem fuisse; atqui dixisse homines pro se et in alios semper, doctores artis sero et circa Tisian et Coraca primum repertos, orationem igitur ante artem fuisse eoque artem non esse.
Then they add those cavils of words: that nothing which is made by art existed before art; but yet men have always spoken for themselves and against others, and teachers of the art were found late and first around Tisias and Corax; therefore, speech existed before art and on that account it is not an art.
§2.17.8nos porro, quando coeperit huius rei doctrina, non laboramus exquirere, quanquam apud Homerum et praeceptorem Phoenicem cum agendi tum etiam loquendi et oratores plures et omne in tribus ducibus orationis genus et certamina quoque proposita eloquentiae inter iuvenes invenimus, quin in caelatura clipei Achillis et lites sunt et actores.
We, furthermore, do not labor to inquire when the teaching of this matter began, although in Homer we find both Phoenix as a teacher of both acting and speaking, and several orators, and every genre of speech in three leaders, and also contests of eloquence proposed among the young, nay, even in the carving of the shield of Achilles there are both lawsuits and pleaders.
§2.17.9illud enim admonere satis est, omnia, quae ars consummaverit, a natura initia duxisse.
For it is enough to advise this, that all things which art has brought to perfection took their beginnings from nature.
aut tollatur medicina, quae ex observatione salubrium atque iis contrariorum reperta est, et, ut quibusdam placet, tota constat experimentis; nam et vulnus deligavit aliquis, antequam haec ars esset, et febrem quiete et abstinentia, non quia rationem videbat, sed quia id valetudo ipsa cogebat, mitigavit.
Or else let medicine be abolished, which was discovered from the observation of things healthy and those contrary to them, and, as some please, consists entirely of experiments; for someone bound up a wound before this art existed, and mitigated a fever by rest and abstinence, not because he saw the reason, but because health itself compelled it.
§2.17.10nec fabrica sit ars; casas enim primi illi sine arte fecerunt; nec musica; cantatur ac saltatur per omnes gentes aliquo modo.
Nor let building be an art; for those first men made huts without art; nor music; for there is singing and dancing among all nations in some manner.
ita si rhetorice vocari debet sermo quicunque, fuisse eam, §2.17.11antequam esset ars, confitebor; si vero non quisquis loquitur, orator est, et tum non tanquam oratores loquebantur, necesse est, oratorem factum arte nec ante artem fuisse fateantur.
Thus, if any speech whatsoever ought to be called rhetoric, I will confess that it existed, before there was an art; but if indeed not everyone who speaks is an orator, and at that time they did not speak as orators, they must confess that the orator is made by art and did not exist before art.
quo illud quoque excluditur, quod dicunt, non esse artis id, quod faciat qui non didicerit, dicere autem homines et qui non didicerint.
By which that is also excluded which they say, that what he does who has not learned is not of art, but that men speak even who have not learned.