§13.4#1περὶ μὲν οὖν τῶν μαθηματικῶν, ὅτι τε ὄντα ἐστὶ καὶ πῶς ὄντα, καὶ πῶς πρότερα καὶ πῶς οὐ πρότερα, τοσαῦτα εἰρήσθω·
Let this suffice, then, for the discussion of mathematical objects, both that they exist and how they exist, and in what sense they are prior and in what sense not prior.
περὶ δὲ τῶν ἰδεῶν πρῶτον αὐτὴν τὴν κατὰ τὴν ἰδέαν δόξαν ἐπισκεπτέον, μηθὲν συνάπτοντας πρὸς τὴν τῶν ἀριθμῶν φύσιν, ἀλλʼ ὡς ὑπέλαβον ἐξ ἀρχῆς οἱ πρῶτοι τὰς ἰδέας φήσαντες εἶναι.
But regarding the Ideas, we must first examine the opinion concerning the Idea by itself, without connecting it in any way to the nature of numbers, but as those who first asserted the existence of Ideas originally conceived them.
συνέβη δʼ ἡ περὶ τῶν εἰδῶν δόξα τοῖς εἰποῦσι διὰ τὸ πεισθῆναι περὶ τῆς ἀληθείας τοῖς Ἡρακλειτείοις λόγοις ὡς πάντων τῶν αἰσθητῶν ἀεὶ ῥεόντων, ὥστʼ εἴπερ ἐπιστήμη τινὸς ἔσται καὶ φρόνησις, ἑτέρας δεῖν τινὰς φύσεις εἶναι παρὰ τὰς αἰσθητὰς μενούσας· οὐ γὰρ εἶναι τῶν ῥεόντων ἐπιστήμην.
The opinion concerning the Forms occurred to those who formulated it because they were convinced of the truth of the Heraclitean arguments that all sensible things are always in flux, so that if there is to be science and wisdom of anything, there must be certain other natures remaining constant besides the sensible ones; for there can be no science of things in flux.
Σωκράτους δὲ περὶ τὰς ἠθικὰς ἀρετὰς πραγματευομένου καὶ περὶ τούτων ὁρίζεσθαι καθόλου ζητοῦντος πρώτου (τῶν μὲν γὰρ φυσικῶν ἐπὶ μικρὸν Δημόκριτος ἥψατο μόνον καὶ ὡρίσατό πως τὸ θερμὸν καὶ τὸ ψυχρόν· οἱ δὲ Πυθαγόρειοι πρότερον περί τινων ὀλίγων, ὧν τοὺς λόγους εἰς τοὺς ἀριθμοὺς ἀνῆπτον, οἷον τί ἐστι καιρὸς ἢ τὸ δίκαιον ἢ γάμος· ἐκεῖνος δʼ εὐλόγως ἐζήτει τὸ τί ἐστιν·
Now when Socrates was occupying himself with the ethical virtues and was the first to seek to define them universally (for of the natural philosophers, Democritus touched upon this only to a small extent and defined in a way the hot and the cold; and the Pythagoreans did so earlier regarding a few things, whose definitions they connected to numbers, such as what opportunity, justice, or marriage is; but he reasonably sought the 'what it is', for he was seeking to syllogize, and the starting point of syllogisms is the 'what it is'.
συλλογίζεσθαι γὰρ ἐζήτει, ἀρχὴ δὲ τῶν συλλογισμῶν τὸ τί ἐστιν· διαλεκτικὴ γὰρ ἰσχὺς οὔπω τότʼ ἦν ὥστε δύνασθαι καὶ χωρὶς τοῦ τί ἐστι τἀναντία ἐπισκοπεῖν, καὶ τῶν ἐναντίων εἰ ἡ αὐτὴ ἐπιστήμη· δύο γάρ ἐστιν ἅ τις ἂν ἀποδοίη Σωκράτει δικαίως, τούς τʼ ἐπακτικοὺς λόγους καὶ τὸ ὁρίζεσθαι καθόλου· ταῦτα γάρ ἐστιν ἄμφω περὶ ἀρχὴν ἐπιστήμης)· —ἀλλʼ ὁ μὲν Σωκράτης τὰ καθόλου οὐ χωριστὰ ἐποίει οὐδὲ τοὺς ὁρισμούς· οἱ δʼ ἐχώρισαν, καὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα τῶν ὄντων ἰδέας προσηγόρευσαν, ὥστε συνέβαινεν αὐτοῖς σχεδὸν τῷ αὐτῷ λόγῳ πάντων ἰδέας εἶναι τῶν καθόλου λεγομένων, καὶ παραπλήσιον ὥσπερ ἂν εἴ τις ἀριθμῆσαι βουλόμενος ἐλαττόνων μὲν ὄντων οἴοιτο μὴ δυνήσεσθαι, πλείω δὲ ποιήσας ἀριθμοίη·
For there was not yet at that time the dialectical power which would enable men, even apart from the 'what it is', to examine contraries, and to see whether the same science deals with contraries; for there are two things which one might justly attribute to Socrates: inductive arguments and universal definitions; for both of these are concerned with the starting point of science)— —but Socrates did not make the universals or the definitions separate; they, however, separated them, and called such things of existing entities Ideas, so that it happened for them, by almost the same argument, that there are Ideas of all things spoken of universally, quite like as if someone, wishing to count, should think that he could not do so when the things were fewer, but should make them more and then count them.
πλείω γάρ ἐστι τῶν καθʼ ἕκαστα αἰσθητῶν ὡς εἰπεῖν τὰ εἴδη, περὶ ὧν ζητοῦντες τὰς αἰτίας ἐκ τούτων ἐκεῖ προῆλθον·
For the Forms are, so to speak, more numerous than the individual sensible things, from which, in seeking their causes, they proceeded from these to those.
καθʼ ἕκαστόν τε γὰρ ὁμώνυμόν τι ἔστι καὶ παρὰ τὰς οὐσίας, τῶν τε ἄλλων ἓν ἔστιν ἐπὶ πολλῶν, καὶ ἐπὶ τοῖσδε καὶ ἐπὶ τοῖς ἀϊδίοις.
For in each case there is something homonymous existing apart from the substances, and in the case of the other things there is a 'one over many', both over these and over eternal things.
ἔτι καθʼ οὓς τρόπους δείκνυται ὅτι ἔστι τὰ εἴδη, κατʼ οὐθένα φαίνεται τούτων·
Furthermore, of the ways in which it is demonstrated that the Forms exist, they do not appear to succeed by any of them.
ἐξ ἐνίων μὲν γὰρ οὐκ ἀνάγκη γίγνεσθαι συλλογισμόν, ἐξ ἐνίων δὲ καὶ οὐχ ὧν οἴονται τούτων εἴδη γίγνεται.
For from some of them no necessary conclusion arises, and from others there arise Forms of things of which they do not think there are Forms.
κατά τε γὰρ τοὺς λόγους τοὺς ἐκ τῶν ἐπιστημῶν ἔσται εἴδη πάντων ὅσων ἐπιστῆμαι εἰσίν, καὶ κατὰ τὸ ἓν ἐπὶ πολλῶν καὶ τῶν ἀποφάσεων, κατὰ δὲ τὸ νοεῖν τι φθαρέντος τῶν φθαρτῶν· φάντασμα γάρ τι τούτων ἔστιν.
For according to the arguments from the sciences, there will be Forms of all things of which there are sciences, and according to the 'one over many' argument, also of negations, and according to the thinking of something when it has perished, of destructible things; for there is some mental image of these.