§13.4#2ἔτι δὲ οἱ ἀκριβέστατοι τῶν λόγων οἱ μὲν τῶν πρός τι ποιοῦσιν ἰδέας, ὧν οὔ φασιν εἶναι καθʼ αὑτὸ γένος, οἱ δὲ τὸν τρίτον ἄνθρωπον λέγουσιν.
Furthermore, of the more precise arguments, some make Ideas of relatives, of which they say there is no genus per se, while others lead to the 'third man'.
ὅλως τε ἀναιροῦσιν οἱ περὶ τῶν εἰδῶν λόγοι ἃ μᾶλλον βούλονται εἶναι οἱ λέγοντες εἴδη τοῦ τὰς ἰδέας εἶναι· συμβαίνει γὰρ μὴ εἶναι πρῶτον τὴν δυάδα ἀλλὰ τὸν ἀριθμόν, καὶ τούτου τὸ πρός τι καὶ τοῦτο τοῦ καθʼ αὑτό, καὶ πάνθʼ ὅσα τινὲς ἀκολουθήσαντες ταῖς περὶ τῶν εἰδῶν δόξαις ἠναντιώθησαν ταῖς ἀρχαῖς.
And in general, the arguments concerning the Forms abolish those things which those who speak of Forms wish to exist more than they wish the Ideas to exist; for it follows that the dyad is not prior but number is, and that the relative is prior to number, and this to the per se, and all other things which some, by following the opinions concerning the Forms, have asserted in opposition to their own principles.
ἔτι κατὰ μὲν τὴν ὑπόληψιν καθʼ ἥν φασιν εἶναι τὰς ἰδέας οὐ μόνον τῶν οὐσιῶν ἔσονται εἴδη ἀλλὰ καὶ ἄλλων πολλῶν (τὸ γὰρ νόημα ἓν οὐ μόνον περὶ τὰς οὐσίας ἀλλὰ καὶ κατὰ μὴ οὐσιῶν ἐστί, καὶ ἐπιστῆμαι οὐ μόνον τῆς οὐσίας εἰσί· συμβαίνει δὲ καὶ ἄλλα μυρία τοιαῦτα)· κατὰ δὲ τὸ ἀναγκαῖον καὶ τὰς δόξας τὰς περὶ αὐτῶν, εἰ ἔστι μεθεκτὰ τὰ εἴδη, τῶν οὐσιῶν ἀναγκαῖον ἰδέας εἶναι μόνον·
Furthermore, according to the assumption on which they say the Ideas exist, there will be Forms not only of substances but also of many other things (for the concept is one not only regarding substances but also regarding non-substances, and sciences are not only of substance; and ten thousand other such things occur); but according to necessity and the opinions about them, if the Forms are participable, it is necessary that there are Ideas only of substances.
οὐ γὰρ κατὰ συμβεβηκὸς μετέχονται ἀλλὰ δεῖ ταύτῃ ἑκάστου μετέχειν ᾗ μὴ καθʼ ὑποκειμένου λέγονται (λέγω δʼ οἷον, εἴ τι αὐτοῦ διπλασίου μετέχει, τοῦτο καὶ ἀϊδίου μετέχει, ἀλλὰ κατὰ συμβεβηκός· συμβέβηκε γὰρ τῷ διπλασίῳ ἀϊδίῳ εἶναι), ὥστε ἔσται οὐσία τὰ εἴδη·
For they are not participated in accidentally, but each must participate in them insofar as they are not said of a subject (I mean, for example, if something participates in 'double itself', this participates also in 'eternal', but accidentally; for it is accidental to the double to be eternal), so that the Forms will be substance.
ταὐτὰ δʼ ἐνταῦθα οὐσίαν σημαίνει κἀκεῖ· ἢ τί ἔσται τὸ εἶναι φάναι τι παρὰ ταῦτα, τὸ ἓν ἐπὶ πολλῶν;
And the same terms signify substance here and there; otherwise, what will be the meaning of saying that there is something apart from these, the 'one over many'?
καὶ εἰ μὲν ταὐτὸ εἶδος τῶν ἰδεῶν καὶ τῶν μετεχόντων, ἔσται τι κοινόν (τί γὰρ μᾶλλον ἐπὶ τῶν φθαρτῶν δυάδων, καὶ τῶν δυάδων τῶν πολλῶν μὲν ἀϊδίων δέ, τὸ δυὰς ἓν καὶ ταὐτόν, ἢ ἐπʼ αὐτῆς καὶ τῆς τινός; )· εἰ δὲ μὴ τὸ αὐτὸ εἶδος, ὁμώνυμα ἂν εἴη, καὶ ὅμοιον ὥσπερ ἂν εἴ τις καλοῖ ἄνθρωπον τόν τε Καλλίαν καὶ τὸ ξύλον, μηδεμίαν κοινωνίαν ἐπιβλέψας αὐτῶν.
And if the Ideas and the things participating in them have the same form, there will be something in common (for why should 'dyad' be one and the same in the case of destructible dyads, and the dyads which are many but eternal, any more than in the case of 'dyad itself' and a particular dyad?); but if they do not have the same form, they would be homonymous, quite as if one were to call both Callias and a piece of wood 'man', without having observed any community between them.
εἰ δὲ τὰ μὲν ἄλλα τοὺς κοινοὺς λόγους ἐφαρμόττειν θήσομεν τοῖς εἴδεσιν, οἷον ἐπʼ αὐτὸν τὸν κύκλον σχῆμα ἐπίπεδον καὶ τὰ λοιπὰ μέρη τοῦ λόγου, τὸ δʼ ὃ ἔστι προστεθήσεται, σκοπεῖν δεῖ μὴ κενὸν ᾖ τοῦτο παντελῶς.
But if we assume that in other respects the common definitions apply to the Forms, as for instance 'plane figure' and the other parts of the definition apply to 'circle itself', and 'that which is' is added, we must consider whether this is not entirely empty.
τίνι τε γὰρ προστεθήσεται;
For to which will it be added?
τῷ μέσῳ ἢ τῷ ἐπιπέδῳ ἢ πᾶσιν;
To the 'middle' or to the 'plane' or to all?
πάντα γὰρ τὰ ἐν τῇ οὐσίᾳ ἰδέαι, οἷον τὸ ζῷον καὶ τὸ δίπουν.
For all things in the substance are Ideas, as for instance 'animal' and 'two-footed'.
ἔτι δῆλον ὅτι ἀνάγκη αὐτὸ εἶναί τι, ὥσπερ τὸ ἐπίπεδον, φύσιν τινὰ ἣ πᾶσιν ἐνυπάρξει τοῖς εἴδεσιν ὡς γένος.
Furthermore, it is clear that 'itself' must be something, like 'plane', a certain nature which will belong to all the Forms as their genus.