§8.839ΑΘ. καλῶς ὑπέλαβες·
ATH.
αὐτὸ γὰρ τοῦτο ἦν τὸ παρʼ ἐμοῦ λεχθέν, ὅτι τέχνην ἐγὼ πρὸς τοῦτον τὸν νόμον ἔχοιμι τοῦ κατὰ φύσιν χρῆσθαι τῇ τῆς παιδογονίας συνουσίᾳ, τοῦ μὲν ἄρρενος ἀπεχομένους, μὴ κτείνοντάς τε ἐκ προνοίας τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος, μηδʼ εἰς πέτρας τε καὶ λίθους σπείροντας, οὗ μήποτε φύσιν τὴν αὑτοῦ ῥιζωθὲν λήψεται γόνιμον, ἀπεχομένους δὲ ἀρούρας θηλείας πάσης ἐν ᾗ μὴ βούλοιο ἄν σοι φύεσθαι τὸ σπαρέν.
You have understood well; for this was indeed the very thing I said, that for this law I had a device to use sexual intercourse for child-begetting in accordance with nature, by abstaining from males, and not deliberately destroying the human race, nor sowing upon rocks and stones, where the seed, once rooted, will never acquire its own fruitful nature, but abstaining from any female field in which you would not wish the sown seed to grow.
ὁ δὴ νόμος οὗτος διηνεκὴς μὲν γενόμενος ἅμα καὶ κρατήσας, καθάπερ νῦν περὶ τὰς τῶν γονέων συμμείξεις κρατεῖ, ἐὰν καὶ περὶ τὰς ἄλλας νικήσῃ δικαίως, μυρία ἀγαθὰ ἔχει.
This law, if it becomes continuous and at the same time prevails—just as it now prevails regarding the intercourse with parents—if it also wins a rightful victory over other kinds of intercourse, will hold myriad goods.
κατὰ φύσιν μὲν γὰρ πρῶτον κεῖται, λύττης δὲ ἐρωτικῆς καὶ μανίας καὶ μοιχειῶν πασῶν καὶ πωμάτων καὶ σίτων εἴργεσθαι ποιεῖ τῶν ἀμέτρων πάντων, γυναιξί τε αὑτῶν οἰκείους εἶναι φίλους· ἄλλα τε πάμπολλα ἀγαθὰ γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ τοῦ νόμου τις τούτου δύναιτο ἐγκρατὴς εἶναι.
For first of all, it is established in accordance with nature, and it makes people abstain from erotic madness, frenzy, all adulteries, and all immoderate eating and drinking, and makes them close friends to their own wives; and very many other goods would arise if one could master this law.
τάχα δʼ ἂν ἡμῖν τις παραστὰς ἀνὴρ σφοδρὸς καὶ νέος, πολλοῦ σπέρματος μεστός, ἀκούων τιθεμένου τοῦ νόμου λοιδορήσειεν ἂν ὡς ἀνόητα καὶ ἀδύνατα τιθέντων νόμιμα, καὶ βοῆς πάντα ἐμπλήσειε· πρὸς ἃ δὴ καὶ βλέψας ἐγὼ τοῦτο εἶπον τὸ ῥῆμα, ὥς τινα τέχνην κεκτῄμην, τῇ μὲν ῥᾴστην ἁπασῶν, τῇ δὲ χαλεπωτάτην, πρὸς τὸ τοῦτον τεθέντα ἐμμεῖναι τὸν νόμον.
But perhaps some vehement and young man, full of much seed, standing by us and hearing the law being established, would mock us as establishing foolish and impossible customs, and would fill everywhere with shouting; and it was looking precisely to these things that I spoke that word, that I possessed a device in one way the easiest of all, but in another the most difficult, for making this law, once established, remain.
νοῆσαι μὲν γὰρ δὴ ῥᾷστον ὡς δυνατόν τέ ἐστιν καὶ ὅπῃ—φαμὲν γὰρ δὴ καθιερωθὲν τοῦτο ἱκανῶς τὸ νόμιμον πᾶσαν ψυχὴν δουλώσεσθαι καὶ παντάπασιν μετὰ φόβου ποιήσειν πείθεσθαι τοῖς τεθεῖσιν νόμοις—ἀλλὰ γὰρ εἰς τοῦτο προβέβηκε νῦν, ὥστʼ οὐδʼ ἂν τότε γενέσθαι δοκεῖ, καθάπερ τὸ τῶν συσσιτίων ἐπιτήδευμα ἀπιστεῖται μὴ δυνατὸν εἶναι δύνασθαι διὰ βίου πόλιν ὅλην ζῆν πράττουσαν τοῦτο, ἐλεγχθὲν δʼ ἔργῳ καὶ γενόμενον παρʼ ὑμῖν, ὅμως ἔτι τό γε γυναικῶν οὐδὲ ἐν ταῖς ὑμετέραις πόλεσιν δοκεῖ φύσιν ἔχειν γίγνεσθαι.
For to understand that it is possible, and in what way—since we say that this custom, once sufficiently consecrated, will enslave every soul and make it obey the established laws entirely with fear—is easiest; but indeed, matters have now advanced to this point of disbelief, so that it seems impossible even then to have happened, just as the practice of common meals is disbelieved to be possible for a whole city to live practicing this throughout life, yet, having been refuted by deed and having occurred among you, nevertheless the practice of women does not yet seem even in your cities to be in accordance with nature to occur.
ταύτῃ δʼ αὖ, διὰ τὴν τῆς ἀπιστίας ῥώμην, εἴρηκα ἀμφότερα ταῦτα εἶναι παγχάλεπα μεῖναι κατὰ νόμον.
In this way, again, because of the strength of this disbelief, I have said that both of these things are very difficult to remain in accordance with law.
ΜΕ. ὀρθῶς γε σὺ λέγων.
MEG. You speak indeed correctly.
ΑΘ. ὡς δʼ οὖν οὐκ ἔστιν ὑπὲρ ἄνθρωπον, οἷόν τε δὲ γενέσθαι, βούλεσθε ὑμῖν πειραθῶ τινα λόγον ἐχόμενον πιθανότητος εἰπεῖν τινος;
ATH. At any rate, that it is not beyond human power, but is possible to happen, do you wish me to try to tell you a discourse that holds some plausibility?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CLE. How indeed could we not?
ΑΘ. πότερον οὖν τις ἀφροδισίων ῥᾷον ἂν ἀπέχοιτο, καὶ τὸ ταχθὲν ἐθέλοι περὶ αὐτὰ μετρίως ποιεῖν, εὖ τὸ σῶμα ἔχων καὶ μὴ ἰδιωτικῶς, ἢ φαύλως;
ATH. Whether, then, would one more easily abstain from sexual pleasures, and wish to act moderately regarding them, being in good physical condition and trained, or in a poor and untrained state?
ΚΛ. πολύ που μᾶλλον μὴ ἰδιωτικῶς.
CLE. Far more indeed the one who is trained.
§8.840ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐκ ἴσμεν τὸν Ταραντῖνον Ἴκκον ἀκοῇ διὰ τὸν Ὀλυμπίασί τε ἀγῶνα καὶ τούς γε ἄλλους;
ATH. Do we not indeed know by hearsay of Iccus of Tarentum, on account of his contest at Olympia and the others?
ὧν διὰ φιλονικίαν, καὶ τέχνην καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦ σωφρονεῖν ἀνδρεῖον ἐν τῇ ψυχῇ κεκτημένος, ὡς λόγος, οὔτε τινὸς πώποτε γυναικὸς ἥψατο οὐδʼ αὖ παιδὸς ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ τῆς ἀσκήσεως ἀκμῇ·
Among whom, through love of victory, possessing both skill and the brave coupled with temperance in his soul, as the story goes, he never touched any woman nor indeed any boy during the whole height of his training.
καὶ δὴ καὶ Κρίσωνα καὶ Ἀστύλον καὶ Διόπομπον καὶ ἄλλους παμπόλλους ὁ αὐτός που λόγος ἔχει.
And indeed, the same story is told of Crison and Astylus and Diopompus and very many others.
καίτοι τῶν γʼ ἐμῶν καὶ σῶν πολιτῶν, ὦ Κλεινία, πολὺ κάκιον ἦσαν πεπαιδευμένοι τὰς ψυχάς, τὰ δὲ σώματα πολὺ μᾶλλον σφριγῶντες.
And yet, Cleinias, they were much worse educated in their souls than my citizens and yours, but much more vigorous in their bodies.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ ταῦτα λέγεις ὅτι σφόδρα ὑπὸ τῶν παλαιῶν ἐστιν εἰρημένα περὶ τούτων τῶν ἀθλητῶν ὡς ὄντως ποτὲ γενόμενα.
CLE. You speak the truth in this, that these things are very strongly said by the ancients about these athletes, as having really happened.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH. What then?
οἱ μὲν ἄρα νίκης ἕνεκα πάλης καὶ δρόμων καὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἐτόλμησαν ἀπέχεσθαι λεγομένου πράγματος ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν εὐδαίμονος, οἱ δὲ ἡμέτεροι παῖδες ἀδυνατήσουσι καρτερεῖν πολὺ καλλίονος ἕνεκα νίκης, ἣν ἡμεῖς καλλίστην ἐκ παίδων πρὸς αὐτοὺς λέγοντες ἐν μύθοις τε καὶ ἐν ῥήμασιν καὶ ἐν μέλεσιν ᾄδοντες, ὡς εἰκός, κηλήσομεν;
Did they, for the sake of victory in wrestling and running and such things, dare to abstain from what is called a happy thing by the many, and shall our children be unable to endure for the sake of a much more beautiful victory—which we, telling them from childhood in myths, words, and songs, chanting to them as is fitting, shall charm them with?
ΚΛ. ποίας;
CLE. What kind of victory?
ΑΘ. τῆς τῶν ἡδονῶν νίκης ἐγκρατεῖς ὄντας ἂν ζῆν εὐδαιμόνως, ἡττωμένους δὲ τοὐναντίον ἅπαν.
ATH. The victory over pleasures, which, if they master, they will live happily, but if they are defeated, the very opposite.
πρὸς δὲ τούτοις ἔτι φόβος ὁ τοῦ μηδαμῇ μηδαμῶς ὅσιον αὐτὸ εἶναι δύναμιν ἡμῖν οὐκ ἄρα ἕξει κρατεῖν ὧν ἄλλοι κεκρατήκασι τούτων ὄντες χείρονες;
And in addition to these, will not the fear that it is by no means holy have the power in us to master those things which others, who are worse than they, have mastered?
ΚΛ. εἰκὸς γοῦν.
CLE. It is likely, at any rate.
ΑΘ. ἐπειδὴ τοίνυν ἐνταῦθά ἐσμεν τούτου τοῦ νομίμου πέρι, διὰ κάκην δὲ τὴν τῶν πολλῶν εἰς ἀπορίαν ἐπέσομεν, φημὶ τὸ μὲν ἡμέτερον νόμιμον ἀτεχνῶς δεῖν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων πορεύεσθαι λέγον ὡς οὐ δεῖ χείρους ἡμῖν εἶναι τοὺς πολίτας ὀρνίθων καὶ ἄλλων θηρίων πολλῶν, οἳ κατὰ μεγάλας ἀγέλας γεννηθέντες, μέχρι μὲν παιδογονίας ἠίθεοι καὶ ἀκήρατοι γάμων τε ἁγνοὶ ζῶσιν, ὅταν δʼ εἰς τοῦτο ἡλικίας ἔλθωσι, συνδυασθέντες ἄρρην θηλείᾳ κατὰ χάριν καὶ θήλεια ἄρρενι, τὸν λοιπὸν χρόνον ὁσίως καὶ δικαίως ζῶσιν, ἐμμένοντες βεβαίως ταῖς πρώταις τῆς φιλίας ὁμολογίαις· δεῖν δὴ θηρίων γε αὐτοὺς ἀμείνους εἶναι.
ATH. Since, then, we are at this point concerning this custom, but have fallen into difficulty because of the badness of the many, I say that our custom must strictly proceed regarding these very things, saying that our citizens must not be worse than birds and many other beasts, who, being born in great herds, live celibate, untouched, and pure from marriage until child-begetting, and when they reach this age, mating male with female in accordance with mutual pleasure and female with male, live the remaining time holily and justly, remaining steadfast in their first agreements of friendship; surely they must be better than beasts.
ἐὰν δʼ οὖν ὑπὸ τῶν ἄλλων Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων τῶν πλείστων διαφθείρωνται, τὴν λεγομένην ἄτακτον Ἀφροδίτην ἐν αὐτοῖς ὁρῶντές τε καὶ ἀκούοντες μέγιστον δυναμένην, καὶ οὕτω δὴ μὴ δυνατοὶ γίγνωνται κατακρατεῖν, δεύτερον νόμον ἐπʼ αὐτοῖς μηχανᾶσθαι χρὴ τοὺς νομοφύλακας νομοθέτας γενομένους.
But if they should be corrupted by the other Greeks and the majority of the barbarians, seeing and hearing that what is called disorderly Aphrodite has the greatest power among them, and thus become unable to control themselves, then the guardians of the laws, becoming legislators, must devise a second law for them.