§8.837ΑΘ. τὴν τῆς φιλίας τε καὶ ἐπιθυμίας ἅμα καὶ τῶν λεγομένων ἐρώτων φύσιν ἰδεῖν ἀναγκαῖον, εἰ μέλλει τις ταῦτα ὀρθῶς διανοηθήσεσθαι·
ATH. It is necessary to see the nature of friendship and desire at the same time, and of what are called loves, if one is to think correctly about these things.
δύο γὰρ ὄντα αὐτά, καὶ ἐξ ἀμφοῖν τρίτον ἄλλο εἶδος, ἓν ὄνομα περιλαβὸν πᾶσαν ἀπορίαν καὶ σκότον ἀπεργάζεται.
For though they are two, and a third other kind arises from both, a single name embracing them works all confusion and darkness.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CLE. How so?
ΑΘ. φίλον μέν που καλοῦμεν ὅμοιον ὁμοίῳ κατʼ ἀρετὴν καὶ ἴσον ἴσῳ, φίλον δʼ αὖ καὶ τὸ δεόμενον τοῦ πεπλουτηκότος, ἐναντίον ὂν τῷ γένει· ὅταν δὲ ἑκάτερον γίγνηται σφοδρόν, ἔρωτα ἐπονομάζομεν.
ATH. We call a friend, I suppose, one who is like to like in virtue and equal to equal, but we also call a friend one who is in need of the one who is rich, being opposite in kind; and when either of these becomes intense, we name it love.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CLE. Correct.
ΑΘ. φιλία τοίνυν ἡ μὲν ἀπὸ ἐναντίων δεινὴ καὶ ἀγρία καὶ τὸ κοινὸν οὐ πολλάκις ἔχουσα ἐν ἡμῖν, ἡ δʼ ἐκ τῶν ὁμοίων ἥμερός τε καὶ κοινὴ διὰ βίου·
ATH. Friendship, then, that arises from opposites is terrible and fierce and does not often have common ground among us, while that from likes is gentle and common throughout life.
μεικτὴ δὲ ἐκ τούτων γενομένη πρῶτον μὲν καταμαθεῖν οὐ ῥᾳδία, τί ποτε βούλοιτʼ ἂν αὑτῷ γενέσθαι τὸν τρίτον ἔρωτά τις ἔχων τοῦτον, ἔπειτα εἰς τοὐναντίον ὑπʼ ἀμφοῖν ἑλκόμενος ἀπορεῖ, τοῦ μὲν κελεύοντος τῆς ὥρας ἅπτεσθαι, τοῦ δὲ ἀπαγορεύοντος.
But that which is mixed, arising from these, is first of all not easy to understand—what indeed a person who has this third love would want for himself; and secondly, being dragged in opposite directions by both, he is at a loss, since the one commands him to touch the bloom of youth, and the other forbids him.
ὁ μὲν γὰρ τοῦ σώματος ἐρῶν, καὶ τῆς ὥρας καθάπερ ὀπώρας πεινῶν, ἐμπλησθῆναι παρακελεύεται ἑαυτῷ, τιμὴν οὐδεμίαν ἀπονέμων τῷ τῆς ψυχῆς ἤθει τοῦ ἐρωμένου· ὁ δὲ πάρεργον μὲν τὴν τοῦ σώματος ἐπιθυμίαν ἔχων, ὁρῶν δὲ μᾶλλον ἢ ἐρῶν, τῇ ψυχῇ δὲ ὄντως τῆς ψυχῆς ἐπιτεθυμηκώς, ὕβριν ἥγηται τὴν περὶ τὸ σῶμα τοῦ σώματος πλησμονήν, τὸ σῶφρον δὲ καὶ ἀνδρεῖον καὶ μεγαλοπρεπὲς καὶ τὸ φρόνιμον αἰδούμενος ἅμα καὶ σεβόμενος, ἁγνεύειν ἀεὶ μεθʼ ἁγνεύοντος τοῦ ἐρωμένου βούλοιτʼ ἄν·
For the one who loves the body, and hungers for the bloom of youth as if for autumn fruit, bids himself to be filled, paying no honor to the character of the soul of the beloved; but the one who holds the desire for the body as a secondary matter, and is a spectator rather than a lover, desiring the soul in truth with his soul, considers the fullness of the body by the body to be insolence, and, respecting and at the same time reverencing the temperate, the brave, the magnificent, and the wise, would wish always to remain chaste with the chaste beloved.
ὁ δὲ μειχθεὶς ἐξ ἀμφοῖν τρίτος ἔρως οὗτός ἐσθʼ ὃν νῦν διεληλύθαμεν ὡς τρίτον.
And the third love, mixed from both, is this which we have now gone through as the third.
ὄντων δὲ τούτων τοσούτων, πότερον ἅπαντας δεῖ κωλύειν τὸν νόμον, ἀπείργοντα μὴ γίγνεσθαι ἐν ἡμῖν, ἢ δῆλον ὅτι τὸν μὲν ἀρετῆς ὄντα καὶ τὸν νέον ἐπιθυμοῦντα ὡς ἄριστον γίγνεσθαι βουλοίμεθʼ ἂν ἡμῖν ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐνεῖναι, τοὺς δὲ δύο, εἰ δυνατὸν εἴη, κωλύοιμεν ἄν;
Since these are of such kinds and so many, must the law forbid them all, preventing them from arising among us? Or is it clear that we would wish the one based on virtue, which desires the youth to become as good as possible, to be present in our city, while we would forbid the other two, if it were possible?
ἢ πῶς λέγομεν, ὦ φίλε Μέγιλλε;
Or how do we say, my dear Megillus?
ΜΕ. πάντῃ τοι καλῶς, ὦ ξένε, περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων εἴρηκας τὰ νῦν.
MEG. In every way beautifully, Stranger, have you spoken just now about these very things.
ΑΘ. ἔοικά γε, ὅπερ καὶ ἐτόπαζον, τυχεῖν τῆς σῆς, ὦ φίλε, συνῳδίας·
ATH. It seems indeed, as I was also guessing, that I have met with your agreement, my friend.
τὸν δὲ νόμον ὑμῶν, ὅτι νοεῖ περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, οὐδέν με ἐξετάζειν δεῖ, δέχεσθαι δὲ τὴν τῷ λόγῳ συγχώρησιν.
And as for your law, what it intends regarding such matters, there is no need for me to question, but rather to accept the agreement in our discourse.
Κλεινίᾳ δὲ μετὰ ταῦτα καὶ εἰς αὖθις περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων πειράσομαι ἐπᾴδων πείθειν.
As for Cleinias, I will try to persuade him hereafter and on another occasion by chanting to him about these very things.
τὸ δέ μοι δεδομένον ὑπὸ σφῷν ἴτω, καὶ διεξέλθωμεν πάντως τοὺς νόμους.
But let the agreement granted to me by you two stand, and let us go through the laws in any case.
ΜΕ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
MEG. You speak most correctly.
§8.838ΑΘ. τέχνην δή τινʼ αὖ τούτου τοῦ νόμου τῆς θέσεως ἐν τῷ νῦν παρόντι τὴν μὲν ῥᾳδίαν ἔχω, τὴν δʼ αὖ τινα τρόπον παντάπασιν ὡς οἷόν τε χαλεπωτάτην.
ATH. Now, as for the device of the establishment of this law, in the present situation I have one that is easy, but on the other hand, in a certain way, altogether as difficult as possible.
ΜΕ. πῶς δὴ λέγεις;
MEG. How do you mean?
ΑΘ. ἴσμεν που καὶ τὰ νῦν τοὺς πλείστους τῶν ἀνθρώπων, καίπερ παρανόμους ὄντας, ὡς εὖ τε καὶ ἀκριβῶς εἴργονται τῆς τῶν καλῶν συνουσίας οὐκ ἄκοντες, ὡς οἷόν τε δὲ μάλιστα ἑκόντες.
ATH. We know, I suppose, even now, that most men, although they are lawless, are beautifully and strictly kept from intercourse with beautiful persons, not unwillingly, but as willingly as possible.
ΜΕ. πότε λέγεις;
MEG. When do you mean?
ΑΘ. ὅταν ἀδελφὸς ἢ ἀδελφή τῳ γένωνται καλοί.
ATH. Whenever a brother or a sister becomes beautiful to someone.
καὶ περὶ ὑέος ἢ θυγατρὸς ὁ αὐτὸς νόμος ἄγραφος ὢν ὡς οἷόν τε ἱκανώτατα φυλάττει μήτε φανερῶς μήτε λάθρᾳ συγκαθεύδοντα ἤ πως ἄλλως ἀσπαζόμενον ἅπτεσθαι τούτων· ἀλλʼ οὐδʼ ἐπιθυμία ταύτης τῆς συνουσίας τὸ παράπαν εἰσέρχεται τοὺς πολλούς.
And concerning a son or a daughter, the same unwritten law, being as effective as possible, guards them sufficiently, so that they do not touch these persons either by sleeping with them openly or secretly, or by embracing them in any other way; indeed, not even the desire for this intercourse altogether enters the minds of the many.
ΜΕ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
MEG. You speak the truth.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν σμικρὸν ῥῆμα κατασβέννυσι πάσας τὰς τοιαύτας ἡδονάς;
ATH. Does not, then, a small word extinguish all such pleasures?
ΜΕ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ λέγεις;
MEG. What kind of word do you mean?
ΑΘ. τὸ ταῦτα εἶναι φάναι μηδαμῶς ὅσια, θεομισῆ δὲ καὶ αἰσχρῶν αἴσχιστα.
ATH. To say that these things are by no means holy, but hateful to the gods and the most shameful of shameful things.
τὸ δʼ αἴτιον ἆρʼ οὐ τοῦτʼ ἐστί, τὸ μηδένα ἄλλως λέγειν αὐτά, ἀλλʼ εὐθὺς γενόμενον ἡμῶν ἕκαστον ἀκούειν τε λεγόντων ἀεὶ καὶ πανταχοῦ ταῦτα, ἐν γελοίοις τε ἅμα ἐν πάσῃ τε σπουδῇ τραγικῇ λεγομένῃ πολλάκις, ὅταν ἢ Θυέστας ἤ τινας Οἰδίποδας εἰσάγωσιν, ἢ Μακαρέας τινὰς ἀδελφαῖς μειχθέντας λαθραίως, ὀφθέντας δὲ ἑτοίμως θάνατον αὑτοῖς ἐπιτιθέντας δίκην τῆς ἁμαρτίας;
And is not the cause of this that no one speaks of them otherwise, but each of us from the moment of birth hears people saying this always and everywhere, both in jest and at the same time in all serious so-called tragedy, whenever they bring on stage Thyesteses or some Oedipuses, or some Macareuses who had secret intercourse with their sisters, and on being discovered readily inflicted death upon themselves as a penalty for their error?
ΜΕ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις τό γε τοσοῦτον, ὅτι τὸ τῆς φήμης θαυμαστήν τινα δύναμιν εἴληχεν, ὅταν μηδεὶς μηδαμῶς ἄλλως ἀναπνεῖν ἐπιχειρήσῃ ποτὲ παρὰ τὸν νόμον.
MEG. You speak most correctly at least to this extent, that public rumor has obtained a certain wonderful power, when no one in any way attempts ever to breathe otherwise than in accordance with the law.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὀρθὸν τὸ νυνδὴ ῥηθέν, ὅτι νομοθέτῃ, βουλομένῳ τινὰ ἐπιθυμίαν δουλώσασθαι τῶν διαφερόντως τοὺς ἀνθρώπους δουλουμένων, ῥᾴδιον γνῶναί γε ὅντινα τρόπον χειρώσαιτο ἄν· ὅτι καθιερώσας ταύτην τὴν φήμην παρὰ πᾶσι, δούλοις τε καὶ ἐλευθέροις καὶ παισὶ καὶ γυναιξὶ καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει κατὰ τὰ αὐτά, οὕτω τὸ βεβαιότατον ἀπειργασμένος ἔσται περὶ τοῦτον τὸν νόμον.
ATH. Therefore, what was said just now is correct, that for a legislator who wishes to enslave some desire of those that pre-eminently enslave men, it is easy to know in what way he might subdue it: that by consecrating this rumor among all, both slaves and free, children and women, and the whole city in the same way, he will thus have achieved the most secure foundation regarding this law.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν·
MEG.
ὅπως δὲ αὖ τὸ τοιοῦτον ἐθέλοντας λέγειν πάντας δυνατὸν ἔσται ποτὲ παρασχεῖν—
Very much so; but how, on the other hand, it will ever be possible to make everyone willing to say such things—