§8.835ΑΘ.τότε καὶ τοὺς μουσικῆς ἀγῶνας χρὴ προσδοκᾶν κατὰ μέρος ἀγωνιεῖσθαι ταχθέντας ὑπό τε ἀθλοθετῶν καὶ τοῦ παιδευτοῦ τῶν νέων καὶ τῶν νομοφυλάκων, εἰς κοινὸν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων συνελθόντων καὶ γενομένων νομοθετῶν αὐτῶν, τοῦ τε πότε καὶ τίνες καὶ μετὰ τίνων τοὺς ἀγῶνας ποιήσονται περὶ ἁπάντων χορῶν καὶ χορείας.
ATH. At that time we must also expect that the musical contests will be competed in in their turn, having been arranged by the stewards of the games, the educator of the youth, and the guardians of the laws, after they have met together in common for these very purposes and have become legislators of them—concerning both when, who, and with whom they shall hold the contests in regard to all choruses and choral dancing.
οἷα δὲ ἕκαστα αὐτῶν εἶναι δεῖ κατὰ λόγον καὶ κατʼ ᾠδὰς καὶ καθʼ ἁρμονίας ῥυθμοῖς κραθείσας καὶ ὀρχήσεσι, πολλάκις εἴρηται τῷ πρώτῳ νομοθέτῃ, καθʼ ἃ τοὺς δευτέρους δεῖ μεταδιώκοντας νομοθετεῖν, καὶ τοὺς ἀγῶνας πρεπόντως ἑκάστοις θύμασιν ἐν χρόνοις προσήκουσι νείμαντας, ἑορτὰς ἀποδοῦναι τῇ πόλει ἑορτάζειν.
And as to what kind each of them ought to be in accordance with reason, and in respect of songs and harmonies blended with rhythms and dances, this has been said many times by the first legislator, in accordance with which the second legislators must legislate as they follow them up, and by distributing the contests fittingly to each of the sacrifices at the proper times, they must assign festivals to the city to celebrate.
ταῦτα μὲν οὖν καὶ ἄλλα τοιαῦτα οὔτε χαλεπὸν γνῶναι τίνα τρόπον χρὴ τάξεως ἐννόμου λαγχάνειν, οὐδʼ αὖ μετατιθέμενα ἔνθα ἢ ἔνθα μέγα τῇ πόλει κέρδος ἢ ζημίαν ἂν φέροι·
These matters, then, and others of the kind, are neither difficult to understand as to how they should obtain a lawful order, nor, on the other hand, if they are shifted this way or that, would they bring any great gain or harm to the city.
ἃ δὲ μὴ σμικρὸν διαφέρει, πείθειν τε χαλεπόν, θεοῦ μὲν μάλιστα ἔργον, εἴ πως οἷόν τε ἦν ἐπιτάξεις αὐτὰς παρʼ ἐκείνου γίγνεσθαι, νῦν δὲ ἀνθρώπου τολμηροῦ κινδυνεύει δεῖσθαί τινος, ὃς παρρησίαν διαφερόντως τιμῶν ἐρεῖ τὰ δοκοῦντα ἄριστʼ εἶναι πόλει καὶ πολίταις, ἐν ψυχαῖς διεφθαρμέναις τὸ πρέπον καὶ ἑπόμενον πάσῃ τῇ πολιτείᾳ τάττων, ἐναντία λέγων ταῖς μεγίσταισιν ἐπιθυμίαις καὶ οὐκ ἔχων βοηθὸν ἄνθρωπον οὐδένα, λόγῳ ἑπόμενος μόνῳ μόνος.
But those matters which make no small difference, and are difficult to persuade people of, are indeed pre-eminently the work of a god, if it were somehow possible for commands themselves to come from him; but as things are, it risks requiring some daring man, who, honoring frankness of speech pre-eminently, will say what seems to be best for the city and citizens, prescribing what is fitting and conformable to the whole constitution in corrupted souls, speaking in opposition to the greatest desires and having no human helper, alone following reason alone.
ΚΛ. τίνʼ αὖ νῦν, ὦ ξένε, λόγον λέγομεν;
CLE. What argument in turn, Stranger, are we speaking of now?
οὐ γάρ πω μανθάνομεν.
For we do not yet understand.
ΑΘ. εἰκότως γε·
ATH.
ἀλλὰ δὴ πειράσομαι ἐγὼ φράζειν ὑμῖν ἔτι σαφέστερον.
Naturally indeed; but I will try to tell you still more clearly.
ὡς γὰρ εἰς παιδείαν ἦλθον τῷ λόγῳ, εἶδον νέους τε καὶ νέας ὁμιλοῦντας φιλοφρόνως ἀλλήλοις· εἰσῆλθεν δή με, οἷον εἰκός, φοβηθῆναι, συννοήσαντα τί τις χρήσεται τῇ τοιαύτῃ πόλει ἐν ᾗ δὴ νέοι μὲν νέαι τε εὐτρεφεῖς εἰσί, πόνων δὲ σφοδρῶν καὶ ἀνελευθέρων, οἳ μάλιστα ὕβριν σβεννύασιν, ἀργοί, θυσίαι δὲ καὶ ἑορταὶ καὶ χοροὶ πᾶσιν μέλουσιν διὰ βίου.
For as I came to the subject of education in my discourse, I saw young men and young women associating with one another in a friendly way; and it came upon me, naturally enough, to be afraid, as I reflected on how one should deal with such a city, in which young men and women are well-nourished, and are idle from severe and illiberal labors which especially quench insolence, while sacrifices, festivals, and choruses are the concern of all throughout their lives.
τίνα δή ποτε τρόπον ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ πόλει ἀφέξονται τῶν πολλοὺς δὴ πολλὰ ἐπιθυμιῶν εἰς ἔσχατα βαλλουσῶν, ὧν ἂν ὁ λόγος προστάττῃ ἀπέχεσθαι, νόμος ἐπιχειρῶν γίγνεσθαι;
In what way indeed in this city will they keep away from those desires which cast many into extreme situations—desires from which reason commands them to abstain, when it attempts to become a law?
§8.836ΑΘ. καὶ τῶν μὲν πολλῶν οὐ θαυμαστὸν ἐπιθυμιῶν εἰ κρατοῖ τὰ πρόσθεν νόμιμα ταχθέντα—τὸ γὰρ μὴ πλουτεῖν τε ἐξεῖναι ὑπερβαλλόντως ἀγαθὸν πρὸς τὸ σωφρονεῖν οὐ σμικρόν, καὶ πᾶσα ἡ παιδεία μετρίους πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτʼ εἴληφεν νόμους, καὶ πρὸς τούτοις ἡ τῶν ἀρχόντων ὄψις διηναγκασμένη μὴ ἀποβλέπειν ἄλλοσε, τηρεῖν δʼ ἀεί, τοὺς νέους τʼ αὐτούς, πρὸς μὲν τὰς ἄλλας ἐπιθυμίας, ὅσα γε ἀνθρώπινα, μέτρον ἔχει—τὰ δὲ δὴ τῶν ἐρώτων παίδων τε ἀρρένων καὶ θηλειῶν καὶ γυναικῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ ἀνδρῶν γυναικῶν ὅθεν δὴ μυρία γέγονεν ἀνθρώποις ἰδίᾳ καὶ ὅλαις πόλεσιν, πῶς τις τοῦτο διευλαβοῖτʼ ἄν, καὶ τί τεμὼν φάρμακον τούτοις ἑκάστοις τοῦ τοιούτου κινδύνου διαφυγὴν εὑρήσει;
ATH. And regarding most desires indeed, it is not surprising if the regulations previously established should control them—for not being allowed to be excessively rich is no small good for temperance, and the whole of our education has received moderate laws toward such things, and in addition to these, there is the oversight of the rulers, who are forced not to look elsewhere but always to watch, and the young people themselves have a limit toward other desires, so far as they are human. But as for the matters of love—of male youths, and of females, and of women with men and men with women, from which indeed countless things have happened to humans individually and to whole cities—how could anyone guard against this, and what drug could he cut to find an escape from such a danger for each of these?
πάντως οὐ ῥᾴδιον, ὦ Κλεινία.
It is by no means easy, Cleinias.
καὶ γὰρ οὖν πρὸς μὲν ἄλλα οὐκ ὀλίγα ἡ Κρήτη τε ἡμῖν ὅλη καὶ ἡ Λακεδαίμων βοήθειαν ἐπιεικῶς οὐ σμικρὰν συμβάλλονται τιθεῖσι νόμους ἀλλοίους τῶν πολλῶν τρόπων, περὶ δὲ τῶν ἐρώτων—αὐτοὶ γάρ ἐσμεν—ἐναντιοῦνται παντάπασιν.
For indeed, while in regard to not a few other things our whole Crete and Lacedaemon contribute a fairly large assistance by establishing laws different from the ways of the many, yet in regard to loves—for we are by ourselves—they are completely opposed.
εἰ γάρ τις ἀκολουθῶν τῇ φύσει θήσει τὸν πρὸ τοῦ Λαΐου νόμον, λέγων ὡς ὀρθῶς εἶχεν τὸ τῶν ἀρρένων καὶ νέων μὴ κοινωνεῖν καθάπερ θηλειῶν πρὸς μεῖξιν ἀφροδισίων, μάρτυρα παραγόμενος τὴν τῶν θηρίων φύσιν καὶ δεικνὺς πρὸς τὰ τοιαῦτα οὐχ ἁπτόμενον ἄρρενα ἄρρενος διὰ τὸ μὴ φύσει τοῦτο εἶναι, τάχʼ ἂν χρῷτο πιθανῷ λόγῳ, καὶ ταῖς ὑμετέραις πόλεσιν οὐδαμῶς συμφωνοῖ.
For if someone, following nature, should establish the law from before Laius, saying that it was right for males and youths not to associate for sexual intercourse as if with females, bringing forward the nature of wild beasts as a witness, and showing that in such matters male does not touch male because this is not by nature, he might perhaps use a persuasive argument, but it would by no means agree with your cities.
πρὸς δὲ τούτοις, ὃ διὰ παντός φαμεν δεῖν τὸν νομοθέτην τηρεῖν, τοῦτο ἐν τούτοις οὐχ ὁμολογεῖ.
And besides these things, that which we say the legislator must keep in view through everything, is not agreed upon in these matters.
ζητοῦμεν γὰρ ἀεὶ δὴ τί τῶν τιθεμένων πρὸς ἀρετὴν φέρει καὶ τί μή·
For we are always seeking indeed which of the established rules leads toward virtue and which does not.
φέρε δή, τοῦτο ἐὰν συγχωρῶμεν καλὸν ἢ μηδαμῶς αἰσχρὸν νομοθετεῖσθαι τὰ νῦν, τί μέρος ἡμῖν συμβάλλοιτʼ ἂν πρὸς ἀρετήν;
Come now, if we concede that this practice, as it is now, is to be legislated as beautiful or by no means shameful, what part would it contribute to us toward virtue?
πότερον ἐν τῇ τοῦ πεισθέντος ψυχῇ γιγνόμενον ἐμφύσεται τὸ τῆς ἀνδρείας ἦθος, ἢ ἐν τῇ τοῦ πείσαντος τὸ τῆς σώφρονος ἰδέας γένος;
Will the character of courage be implanted in the soul of the one who is persuaded, by its happening there? Or in the soul of the persuader, the quality of temperance?
ἢ ταῦτα μὲν οὐδεὶς ἂν πεισθείη ποτέ, μᾶλλον δὲ ἅπαν τούτου τοὐναντίον, τοῦ μὲν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς ὑπείκοντος καὶ καρτερεῖν οὐ δυναμένου ψέξει πᾶς τὴν μαλακίαν, τοῦ δʼ εἰς μίμησιν τοῦ θήλεος ἰόντος τὴν τῆς εἰκόνος ὁμοιότητα ἆρʼ οὐ μέμψεται;
Or would no one ever be persuaded of these things, but rather the very opposite of this in every way—will not everyone find fault with the effeminacy of the one who yields to pleasures and is unable to endure them, and will they not censure the likeness of the image of the one who goes toward the imitation of the female?
τίς οὖν ἀνθρώπων τοῦτο ὂν τοιοῦτον νομοθετήσει;
Who then among humans will legislate this, it being of such a nature?
σχεδὸν οὐδείς, ἔχων γε ἐν τῷ νῷ νόμον ἀληθῆ.
Scarcely anyone, at least if he has a true law in his mind.
πῶς οὖν φαμεν ἀληθὲς τοῦτο εἶναι;
How then do we say that this is true?