§8.830ΑΘ. χρὴ δὲ ἀναφέρειν παραδεικνύντα ἑαυτῷ τὸν νομοθέτην τῷ λόγῳ· φέρε, τίνας ποτὲ τρέφω τὴν πόλιν ὅλην παρασκευάσας; ἆρʼ οὐκ ἀθλητὰς τῶν μεγίστων ἀγώνων, οἷς ἀνταγωνισταὶ μυρίοι ὑπάρχουσι;
ATH. But the lawgiver must refer, presenting to himself in the argument (this question): 'Come, whom indeed do I nurture, having prepared the whole city?' 'Is it not athletes of the greatest contests, for whom there are ten thousand competitors?' Certainly, someone would say, speaking correctly.
καὶ πάνυ γε, φαίη τις ἂν ὀρθῶς λέγων.
What then?
τί δῆτα; εἰ πύκτας ἢ παγκρατιαστὰς ἐτρέφομεν ἤ τι τῶν τοιούτων ἕτερον ἀγωνισμάτων ἀθλοῦντας, ἆρα εἰς αὐτὸν ἂν ἀπηντῶμεν τὸν ἀγῶνα, ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν χρόνῳ οὐδενὶ καθʼ ἡμέραν προσμαχόμενοι;
If we were nurturing boxers or pancratiasts or those competing in some other such contests, would we meet the contest itself, having fought against no one daily in the preceding time?
ἢ πύκται γε ὄντες παμπόλλας ἂν ἡμέρας ἔμπροσθεν τοῦ ἀγῶνος ἐμανθάνομέν τε ἂν μάχεσθαι καὶ διεπονούμεθα, μιμούμενοι πάντα ἐκεῖνα ὁπόσοις ἐμέλλομεν εἰς τότε χρήσεσθαι περὶ τῆς νίκης διαμαχόμενοι, καὶ ὡς ἐγγύτατα τοῦ ὁμοίου ἰόντες, ἀντὶ ἱμάντων σφαίρας ἂν περιεδούμεθα, ὅπως αἱ πληγαί τε καὶ αἱ τῶν πληγῶν εὐλάβειαι διεμελετῶντο εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν ἱκανῶς, εἴ τέ τις ἡμῖν συγγυμναστῶν συνέβαινεν ἀπορία πλείων, ἆρʼ ἂν δείσαντες τὸν τῶν ἀνοήτων γέλωτα οὐκ ἂν ἐτολμῶμεν κρεμαννύντες εἴδωλον ἄψυχον γυμνάζεσθαι πρὸς αὐτό;
Or, being boxers at least, would we not have learned to fight many days before the contest and have worked hard, imitating all those things which we were going to use at that time while contending for victory, and going as close as possible to the likeness of reality, would we not have bound padded gloves around our hands instead of thongs, so that the blows and the precautions against blows might be practiced sufficiently as far as possible? And if some greater lack of training partners happened to us, would we, fearing the laughter of fools, not have dared to hang up a lifeless image and train against it?
καὶ ἔτι πάντων τῶν τε ἐμψύχων καὶ τῶν ἀψύχων ἀπορήσαντές ποτε, ἐν ἐρημίᾳ συγγυμναστῶν ἆρά γε οὐκ ἐτολμήσαμεν ἂν αὐτοὶ πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς σκιαμαχεῖν ὄντως;
And still, if we were once in want of all things, both animate and inanimate, in the absence of training partners, would we not have dared to fight truly against ourselves (shadow-box)?
ἢ τί ποτε ἄλλο τὴν τοῦ χειρονομεῖν μελέτην ἄν τις φαίη γεγονέναι;
Or what else indeed would anyone say the practice of hand-moving has become?
ΚΛ. σχεδόν, ὦ ξένε, οὐδὲν ἄλλο γε πλὴν τοῦτο αὐτὸ ὃ σὺ νῦν ἔφθεγξαι.
CL. Nearly, stranger, nothing else than this very thing which you have just uttered.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH. What then?
τὸ τῆς πόλεως ἡμῖν μάχιμον ἦ χεῖρόν τι παρασκευασάμενον τῶν τοιούτων ἀγωνιστῶν εἰς τὸν μέγιστον τῶν ἀγώνων ἑκάστοτε τολμήσει παριέναι, διαμαχούμενον περὶ ψυχῆς καὶ παίδων καὶ χρημάτων καὶ ὅλης τῆς πόλεως;
Will the fighting force of our city, having made preparation in some way inferior to such contestants, dare to enter upon the greatest of contests on each occasion, contending for life and children and property and the whole city?
καὶ ταῦτα δὴ φοβηθεὶς αὐτῶν ὁ νομοθέτης τὰ πρὸς ἀλλήλους γυμνάσια μὴ φαίνηταί τισιν γελοῖα, οὐκ ἄρα νομοθετήσει, στρατεύεσθαι προστάττων μάλιστα μὲν ἑκάστης ἡμέρας τά γε σμικρὰ χωρὶς τῶν ὅπλων, χορούς τε εἰς ταῦτα ἅμα καὶ γυμναστικὴν πᾶσαν συντείνων, τὰς δὲ οἷόν τινας μείζους τε καὶ ἐλάττους γυμνασίας μὴ ἔλαττον ἢ κατὰ μῆνα ἕκαστον ποιεῖσθαι προστάξει, ἁμίλλας τε πρὸς ἀλλήλους ποιουμένους κατὰ πᾶσαν τὴν χώραν, ἐπὶ κατάληψιν χωρίων ἁμιλλωμένους καὶ ἐνέδρας, καὶ πᾶσαν μιμουμένους τὴν πολεμικήν, §8.831ΑΘ. ὄντως σφαιρομαχεῖν τε καὶ βολαῖς ὡς ἐγγύτατα τῶν ἀληθῶν, χρωμένους ὑποκινδύνοις βέλεσιν, ὅπως μὴ παντάπασιν ἄφοβος ἡ πρὸς ἀλλήλους γίγνηται παιδιά, δείματα δὲ παρέχῃ καί τινα τρόπον δηλοῖ τόν τε εὔψυχον καὶ τὸν μή, καὶ τοῖς μὲν τιμάς, τοῖς δὲ καὶ ἀτιμίας διανέμων ὀρθῶς, τὴν πόλιν ὅλην εἰς τὸν ἀληθινὸν ἀγῶνα διὰ βίου παρασκευάζῃ χρησίμην, καὶ δὴ καί τινος ἀποθανόντος οὕτως, ὡς ἀκουσίου τοῦ φόνου γενομένου, τιθῇ τὸν ἀποκτείναντα κατὰ νόμον καθαρθέντα καθαρὸν εἶναι χεῖρας, ἡγούμενος ἀνθρώπων μὲν τελευτησάντων μὴ πολλῶν, ἑτέρους πάλιν οὐ χείρους φύσεσθαι, φόβου δὲ οἷον τελευτήσαντος, ἐν πᾶσιν τοῖς τοιούτοις βάσανον οὐχ εὑρήσειν τῶν τε ἀμεινόνων καὶ χειρόνων, οὐ σμικρῷ πόλει μεῖζον κακὸν ἐκείνου;
And fearing indeed these things, lest their exercises with one another should appear ridiculous to some, will the lawgiver then not legislate, ordering them to make expeditions, preferably indeed every day in minor ways without arms, directing both dances and all gymnastic activities to this end, and ordering them to perform greater and lesser exercises, as it were, no less than every month, making contests with one another throughout the whole territory, competing for the seizure of places and ambushes, and imitating all warfare, ATH. really fighting with padded weapons and throwing missiles as close as possible to the truth, using somewhat dangerous weapons, so that their play with one another may not be altogether free of fear, but may present fears and in some way show the courageous and the non-courageous, and distributing honors to some and dishonors to others correctly, preparing the whole city useful for the true contest throughout life? And indeed, even if someone dies in this way, on the ground that the killing was involuntary, he should ordain that the killer, having been purified according to law, is clean of hands, thinking that while if a few men die, others no worse will grow in their place, but if fear, so to speak, dies, he will not find a test of the better and the worse in all such matters, which is a far greater evil for a city than the former?
ΚΛ. συμφαῖμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς γε, ὦ ξένε, τὰ τοιαῦτα δεῖν καὶ νομοθετεῖν καὶ ἐπιτηδεύειν πόλιν ἅπασαν.
CL. We, at least, would agree, stranger, that every city must legislate and practice such things.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν γιγνώσκομεν ἅπαντες τὴν αἰτίαν διότι ποτὲ νῦν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἡ τοιαύτη χορεία καὶ ἀγωνία σχεδὸν οὐδαμῇ οὐδαμῶς ἐστιν, εἰ μὴ πάνυ τι σμικρά;
ATH. Do we all then know the cause why indeed such training and competition is now almost nowhere and in no way present in cities, except in some very small degree?
ἢ φῶμεν διʼ ἀμαθίαν τῶν πολλῶν καὶ τῶν τιθέντων αὐτοῖς τοὺς νόμους;
Or shall we say it is through the ignorance of the many and of those who make laws for them?
ΚΛ. τάχʼ ἄν.
CL. Perhaps.
ΑΘ. οὐδαμῶς, ὦ μακάριε Κλεινία·
ATH.
δύο δὲ χρὴ φάναι τούτων αἰτίας εἶναι καὶ μάλα ἱκανάς.
By no means, blessed Cleinias; but one must say there are two causes for these things, and very sufficient ones.
ΚΛ. ποίας;
CL. Of what sort?
ΑΘ. τὴν μὲν ὑπʼ ἔρωτος πλούτου πάντα χρόνον ἄσχολον ποιοῦντος τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιμελεῖσθαι πλὴν τῶν ἰδίων κτημάτων, ἐξ ὧν κρεμαμένη πᾶσα ψυχὴ πολίτου παντὸς οὐκ ἄν ποτε δύναιτο τῶν ἄλλων ἐπιμέλειαν ἴσχειν πλὴν τοῦ καθʼ ἡμέραν κέρδους· καὶ ὅτι μὲν πρὸς τοῦτο φέρει μάθημα ἢ καὶ ἐπιτήδευμα, ἰδίᾳ πᾶς μανθάνειν τε καὶ ἀσκεῖν ἑτοιμότατός ἐστιν, τῶν δὲ ἄλλων καταγελᾷ.
ATH. One indeed is by the love of wealth, which makes everyone busy all the time from caring for other things except their own possessions, from which every soul of every citizen hanging could never be able to have care of other things except daily gain; and whatever learning or practice leads to this, everyone is most ready to learn and practice privately, but they laugh at the other things.
τοῦτο μὲν ἓν καὶ ταύτην μίαν αἰτίαν χρὴ φάναι τοῦ μήτε τοῦτο μήτʼ ἄλλο μηδὲν καλὸν κἀγαθὸν ἐθέλειν ἐπιτήδευμα πόλιν σπουδάζειν, ἀλλὰ διὰ τὴν τοῦ χρυσοῦ τε καὶ ἀργύρου ἀπληστίαν πᾶσαν μὲν τέχνην καὶ μηχανήν, καλλίω τε καὶ ἀσχημονεστέραν, ἐθέλειν ὑπομένειν πάντα ἄνδρα, εἰ μέλλει πλούσιος ἔσεσθαι, καὶ πρᾶξιν πράττειν ὅσιόν τε καὶ ἀνόσιον καὶ πάντως αἰσχράν, μηδὲν δυσχεραίνοντα, ἐὰν μόνον ἔχῃ δύναμιν καθάπερ θηρίῳ τοῦ φαγεῖν παντοδαπὰ καὶ πιεῖν ὡσαύτως καὶ ἀφροδισίων πᾶσαν πάντως παρασχεῖν πλησμονήν.
This is one, and this must be stated as one cause for a city not wishing to study this nor any other beautiful and good practice, but through the greed for gold and silver every man is willing to undergo every art and device, both more beautiful and more disgraceful, if he is going to be rich, and to perform an action both holy and unholy and altogether shameful, in no way being displeased, if only he has the power, like a beast, to eat all kinds of things, and likewise to drink, and to provide altogether every fullness of sexual pleasures.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CL. Correct.