§7.812ΑΘ. καὶ πρῶτον μὲν τοὺς διδασκάλους αὐτοὺς ἀναγκάζειν μανθάνειν καὶ ἐπαινεῖν, οὓς δʼ ἂν μὴ ἀρέσκῃ τῶν διδασκάλων, μὴ χρῆσθαι τούτοις συνεργοῖς, οὓς δʼ ἂν τῷ ἐπαίνῳ συμψήφους ἔχῃ, τούτοις χρώμενον, τοὺς νέους αὐτοῖς παραδιδόναι διδάσκειν τε καὶ παιδεύειν.
ATH.: And first, to compel the teachers themselves to learn and praise these, and as for those of the teachers whom these do not please, not to use them as helpers, but to use those whom he has as voters agreeing in praise, and to hand over the young to them to teach and educate.
οὗτός μοι μῦθος ἐνταῦθα καὶ οὕτω τελευτάτω, περὶ γραμματιστῶν τε εἰρημένος ἅμα καὶ γραμμάτων.
Let this story of mine here and in this way come to an end, spoken at once about both letter-teachers and letters.
ΚΛ. κατὰ μὲν τὴν ὑπόθεσιν, ὦ ξένε, ἔμοιγε οὐ φαινόμεθα ἐκτὸς πορεύεσθαι τῶν ὑποτεθέντων λόγων· εἰ δὲ τὸ ὅλον κατορθοῦμεν ἢ μή, χαλεπὸν ἴσως διισχυρίζεσθαι.
CL.: According to the hypothesis, O stranger, at least to me we do not seem to be traveling outside of the proposed discussions; but whether we are succeeding in the whole or not, it is perhaps difficult to assert strongly.
ΑΘ. τότε γάρ, ὦ Κλεινία, τοῦτό γʼ αὐτὸ ἔσται καταφανέστερον, ὡς εἰκός, ὅταν, ὃ πολλάκις εἰρήκαμεν, ἐπὶ τέλος ἀφικώμεθα πάσης τῆς διεξόδου περὶ νόμων.
ATH.: For then, O Cleinias, this very thing will be clearer, as is likely, when, as we have often said, we arrive at the end of the entire inquiry concerning laws.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CL.: Correct.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ μετὰ τὸν γραμματιστὴν ὁ κιθαριστὴς ἡμῖν προσρητέος;
ATH.: Must we not, then, address the lyre-player after the letter-teacher?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL.: What else?
ΑΘ. τοῖς κιθαρισταῖς μὲν τοίνυν ἡμᾶς δοκῶ τῶν ἔμπροσθεν λόγων ἀναμνησθέντας τὸ προσῆκον νεῖμαι τῆς τε διδασκαλίας ἅμα καὶ πάσης τῆς περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα παιδεύσεως.
ATH.: To the lyre-players, therefore, I think we, remembering the previous discussions, should assign what is fitting of both the teaching and all the education concerning such things.
ΚΛ. ποίων δὴ πέρι λέγεις;
CL.: Concerning what sort of things indeed do you speak?
ΑΘ. ἔφαμεν, οἶμαι, τοὺς τοῦ Διονύσου τοὺς ἑξηκοντούτας ᾠδοὺς διαφερόντως εὐαισθήτους δεῖν γεγονέναι περί τε τοὺς ῥυθμοὺς καὶ τὰς τῶν ἁρμονιῶν συστάσεις, ἵνα τὴν τῶν μελῶν μίμησιν τὴν εὖ καὶ τὴν κακῶς μεμιμημένην, ἐν τοῖς παθήμασιν ὅταν ψυχὴ γίγνηται, τά τε τῆς ἀγαθῆς ὁμοιώματα καὶ τὰ τῆς ἐναντίας ἐκλέξασθαι δυνατὸς ὤν τις, τὰ μὲν ἀποβάλλῃ, τὰ δὲ προφέρων εἰς μέσον ὑμνῇ καὶ ἐπᾴδῃ ταῖς τῶν νέων ψυχαῖς, προκαλούμενος ἑκάστους εἰς ἀρετῆς ἕπεσθαι κτῆσιν συνακολουθοῦντας διὰ τῶν μιμήσεων.
ATH.: We said, I think, that the sixty-year-old singers of Dionysus must be exceptionally sensitive concerning both the rhythms and the structures of harmonies, so that, when the soul is in emotional states, being able to select the imitation of melodies that has been imitated well and that badly, namely the likenesses of the good and those of the opposite, one may reject the former, but, bringing the latter into the midst, sing and chant them to the souls of the young, calling upon each to follow the acquisition of virtue, accompanying along through the imitations.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
CL.: You speak most truly.
ΑΘ. τούτων τοίνυν δεῖ χάριν τοῖς φθόγγοις τῆς λύρας προσχρῆσθαι, σαφηνείας ἕνεκα τῶν χορδῶν, τόν τε κιθαριστὴν καὶ τὸν παιδευόμενον, ἀποδιδόντας πρόσχορδα τὰ φθέγματα τοῖς φθέγμασι· τὴν δʼ ἑτεροφωνίαν καὶ ποικιλίαν τῆς λύρας, ἄλλα μὲν μέλη τῶν χορδῶν ἱεισῶν, ἄλλα δὲ τοῦ τὴν μελῳδίαν συνθέντος ποιητοῦ, καὶ δὴ καὶ πυκνότητα μανότητι καὶ τάχος βραδυτῆτι καὶ ὀξύτητα βαρύτητι σύμφωνον καὶ ἀντίφωνον παρεχομένους, καὶ τῶν ῥυθμῶν ὡσαύτως παντοδαπὰ ποικίλματα προσαρμόττοντας τοῖσι φθόγγοις τῆς λύρας, πάντα οὖν τὰ τοιαῦτα μὴ προσφέρειν τοῖς μέλλουσιν ἐν τρισὶν ἔτεσιν τὸ τῆς μουσικῆς χρήσιμον ἐκλήψεσθαι διὰ τάχους.
ATH.: For the sake of these things, therefore, one must make use of the sounds of the lyre, for the sake of the clarity of the strings, both the lyre-player and the one being educated rendering the vocal sounds in unison with the sounds of the strings; but heterophony and variety of the lyre, the strings emitting other melodies, and the poet who composed the melody emitting others, and indeed presenting density consonant or responsive with rarity, speed with slowness, and high pitch with low pitch, and in the same way fitting all kinds of ornaments of rhythms to the sounds of the lyre—all such things one must not introduce to those who are going to receive within three years what is useful of music with speed.
τὰ γὰρ ἐναντία ἄλληλα ταράττοντα δυσμάθειαν παρέχει, δεῖ δὲ ὅτι μάλιστα εὐμαθεῖς εἶναι τοὺς νέους· τὰ γὰρ ἀναγκαῖα οὐ σμικρὰ οὐδʼ ὀλίγα αὐτοῖς ἐστι προστεταγμένα μαθήματα, δείξει δὲ αὐτὰ προϊὼν ὁ λόγος ἅμα τῷ χρόνῳ.
For opposites disturbing each other cause difficulty of learning, but the young must be as easy to learn as possible; for the necessary lessons prescribed for them are not small nor few, as the discussion proceeding together with time will show.
§7.813ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ ταῦτα μὲν οὕτω περὶ τῆς μουσικῆς ἡμῖν ὁ παιδευτὴς ἐπιμελείσθω· τὰ δὲ μελῶν αὐτῶν αὖ καὶ ῥημάτων, οἷα τοὺς χοροδιδασκάλους καὶ ἃ δεῖ διδάσκειν, καὶ ταῦτα ἡμῖν ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν διείρηται πάντα, ἃ δὴ καθιερωθέντα ἔφαμεν δεῖν, ταῖς ἑορταῖς ἕκαστα ἁρμόττοντα, ἡδονὴν εὐτυχῆ ταῖς πόλεσιν παραδιδόντα ὠφελεῖν.
ATH.: But let the educator take care of these things in this way concerning music; but as for those of the melodies themselves and of the words, what sort of chorus-teachers and what things they must teach, these also have all been fully distinguished by us in the previous parts, which indeed having been consecrated, we said must fit each of the festivals, and benefit by delivering fortunate pleasure to the cities.
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ καὶ ταῦτα διείρηκας.
CL.: These things also you have distinguished truly.
ΑΘ. ἀληθέστατα τοίνυν.
ATH.: Most truly indeed.
καὶ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν παραλαβὼν ὁ περὶ τὴν μοῦσαν ἄρχων αἱρεθεὶς ἐπιμελείσθω μετὰ τύχης εὐμενοῦς, ἡμεῖς δὲ ὀρχήσεώς τε πέρι καὶ ὅλης τῆς περὶ τὸ σῶμα γυμναστικῆς πρὸς τοῖς ἔμπροσθεν εἰρημένοις ἀποδῶμεν· καθάπερ μουσικῆς τὸ διδασκαλικὸν ὑπόλοιπον ὂν ἀπέδομεν, ὡσαύτως ποιῶμεν καὶ γυμναστικῆς.
And having received these, let the official elected concerning the Muse take care of them with kindly fortune, and let us, concerning dance and the whole of gymnastics regarding the body, add to what was previously spoken; just as we rendered what was left over of music concerning the teaching, let us do in the same way also for gymnastics.
τοὺς γὰρ παῖδάς τε καὶ τὰς παῖδας ὀρχεῖσθαι δὴ δεῖ καὶ γυμνάζεσθαι μανθάνειν·
For both boys and girls must indeed learn to dance and practice gymnastics; must they not?
ἦ γάρ; ΚΛ. ναί.
CL.: Yes.
ΑΘ. τοῖς μὲν τοίνυν παισὶν ὀρχησταί, ταῖς δὲ ὀρχηστρίδες ἂν εἶεν πρὸς τὸ διαπονεῖν οὐκ ἀνεπιτηδειότερον.
ATH.: For the boys, therefore, there would be male dancers, and for the girls, female dancers, which is not unsuitable for working hard.
ΚΛ. ἔστω δὴ ταύτῃ.
CL.: Let it indeed be so in this way.
ΑΘ. πάλιν δὴ τὸν τὰ πλεῖστα ἕξοντα πράγματα καλῶμεν, τὸν τῶν παίδων ἐπιμελητήν, ὃς τῶν τε περὶ μουσικὴν τῶν τε περὶ γυμναστικὴν ἐπιμελούμενος οὐ πολλὴν ἕξει σχολήν.
ATH.: Let us call again the one who will have the most business, the director of the children, who, taking care of both the things concerning music and those concerning gymnastics, will not have much leisure.
ΚΛ. πῶς οὖν δυνατὸς ἔσται πρεσβύτερος ὢν τοσούτων ἐπιμελεῖσθαι;
CL.: How then will he be able, being an elder, to take care of so many things?
ΑΘ. ῥᾳδίως, ὦ φίλε.
ATH.: Easily, my friend.
ὁ νόμος γὰρ αὐτῷ δέδωκεν καὶ δώσει προσλαμβάνειν εἰς ταύτην τὴν ἐπιμέλειαν τῶν πολιτῶν ἀνδρῶν καὶ γυναικῶν οὓς ἂν ἐθέλῃ, γνώσεται δὲ οὓς δεῖ, καὶ βουλήσεται μὴ πλημμελεῖν εἰς ταῦτα, αἰδούμενος ἐμφρόνως καὶ γιγνώσκων τῆς ἀρχῆς τὸ μέγεθος, λογισμῷ τε συνὼν ὡς εὖ μὲν τραφέντων καὶ τρεφομένων τῶν νέων πάντα ἡμῖν κατʼ ὀρθὸν πλεῖ, μὴ δέ—οὔτʼ εἰπεῖν ἄξιον οὔθʼ ἡμεῖς λέγομεν ἐπὶ καινῇ πόλει τοὺς σφόδρα φιλομαντευτὰς σεβόμενοι.
For the law has given and will give to him to take to himself for this care whomever of the citizens, men and women, he wishes, and he will know whom he must, and he will wish not to make a mistake in these things, being sensibly reverent and knowing the greatness of his office, and being accompanied by the reasoning that if the young are well reared and being reared, everything sails on a straight course for us, but if not—it is not fit to say, nor do we say it, respecting the very eager searchers of omens in a new city.
πολλὰ μὲν οὖν ἡμῖν καὶ περὶ τούτων εἴρηται, τῶν περὶ τὰς ὀρχήσεις καὶ περὶ πᾶσαν τὴν τῶν γυμνασίων κίνησιν· γυμνάσια γὰρ τίθεμεν καὶ τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἅπαντα τοῖς σώμασι διαπονήματα τοξικῆς τε καὶ πάσης ῥίψεως καὶ πελταστικῆς καὶ πάσης ὁπλομαχίας καὶ διεξόδων τακτικῶν καὶ ἁπάσης πορείας στρατοπέδων καὶ στρατοπεδεύσεων καὶ ὅσα εἰς ἱππικὴν μαθήματα συντείνει.
Much indeed has also been said by us concerning these things, those concerning the dances and concerning the whole movement of gymnastics; for we establish as gymnastics also all the labors for the bodies concerning war, both archery and every throwing, and peltast-fighting, and every heavy-armed fighting, and tactical maneuvers, and every march of armies, and encampments, and all the lessons that contribute to horsemanship.