§7.810ΑΘ. εἰς μὲν γράμματα παιδὶ δεκετεῖ σχεδὸν ἐνιαυτοὶ τρεῖς, λύρας δὲ ἅψασθαι τρία μὲν ἔτη καὶ δέκα γεγονόσιν ἄρχεσθαι μέτριος ὁ χρόνος, ἐμμεῖναι δὲ ἕτερα τρία.
ATH.: For letters, on the one hand, nearly three years is the time for a ten-year-old child; on the other hand, to touch the lyre, for those who have reached thirteen years of age, is the proper time to begin, and to remain in it for another three years.
καὶ μήτε πλείω τούτων μήτʼ ἐλάττω πατρὶ μηδʼ αὐτῷ, φιλομαθοῦντι μηδὲ μισοῦντι, περὶ ταῦτα ἐξέστω μείζω μηδὲ ἐλάττω διατριβὴν ποιεῖσθαι παράνομον·
And it shall not be permitted, contrary to the law, for either a father or the boy himself, whether he is fond of learning or hates it, to spend either more or less time than this on these things.
ὁ δὲ μὴ πειθόμενος ἄτιμος τῶν παιδείων ἔστω τιμῶν, ἃς ὀλίγον ὕστερον ῥητέον.
Let the one who does not obey be deprived of the educational honors, which must be spoken of a little later.
μανθάνειν δὲ ἐν τούτοις τοῖς χρόνοις δὴ τί ποτε δεῖ τοὺς νέους καὶ διδάσκειν αὖ τοὺς διδασκάλους, τοῦτο αὐτὸ πρῶτον μάνθανε.
And as for what indeed the young must learn during these times, and what in turn the teachers must teach, learn this very thing first.
γράμματα μὲν τοίνυν χρὴ τὸ μέχρι τοῦ γράψαι τε καὶ ἀναγνῶναι δυνατὸν εἶναι διαπονεῖν·
Now, as for letters, it is necessary to work hard until the point of being able to write and read.
πρὸς τάχος δὲ ἢ κάλλος ἀπηκριβῶσθαί τισιν, οἷς μὴ φύσις ἐπέσπευσεν ἐν τοῖς τεταγμένοις ἔτεσιν, χαίρειν ἐᾶν.
But as for attaining precision in speed or beauty for some whose nature did not urge them forward during the prescribed years, one must let it go.
πρὸς δὲ δὴ μαθήματα ἄλυρα ποιητῶν κείμενα ἐν γράμμασι, τοῖς μὲν μετὰ μέτρων, τοῖς δʼ ἄνευ ῥυθμῶν τμημάτων, ἃ δὴ συγγράμματα κατὰ λόγον εἰρημένα μόνον, τητώμενα ῥυθμοῦ τε καὶ ἁρμονίας, σφαλερὰ γράμμαθʼ ἡμῖν ἐστιν παρά τινων τῶν πολλῶν τοιούτων ἀνθρώπων καταλελειμμένα·
But on the other hand, regarding the lessons without the lyre consisting of the poets' works laid down in writing—some with meters, others without division into rhythms, which are indeed called writings spoken in prose alone, deprived of both rhythm and harmony—they are dangerous writings for us, left behind by some of the many such people.
οἷς, ὦ πάντων βέλτιστοι νομοφύλακες, τί χρήσεσθε;
With these, O best guardians of the laws of all, what will you do?
ἢ τί ποθʼ ὑμῖν ὁ νομοθέτης χρῆσθαι προστάξας ὀρθῶς ἂν τάξειε;
Or what, by ordering you to do with them, could the legislator ever rightly ordain?
καὶ μάλα ἀπορήσειν αὐτὸν προσδοκῶ.
Indeed, I expect that he himself will be greatly at a loss.
ΚΛ. τί ποτε τοῦτο, ὦ ξένε, φαίνῃ πρὸς σαυτὸν ὄντως ἠπορηκὼς λέγειν;
CL.: What in the world is this, O stranger?
ΑΘ. ὀρθῶς ὑπέλαβες, ὦ Κλεινία.
You seem to be speaking as if you were truly at a loss with yourself.
πρὸς δὲ δὴ κοινωνοὺς ὑμᾶς ὄντας περὶ νόμων ἀνάγκη τό τε φαινόμενον εὔπορον καὶ τὸ μὴ φράζειν.
ATH.: You have understood rightly, O Cleinias.
ΚΛ. τί οὖν;
But to you who are partners concerning the laws, it is necessary to speak of both what appears easy and what does not.
τί περὶ τούτων νῦν καὶ ποῖόν τι πεπονθὼς λέγεις;
CL.: What then?
ΑΘ. ἐρῶ δή·
What are you saying now about these things, and what is the state of mind in which you say it?
στόμασι γὰρ πολλάκις μυρίοις ἐναντία λέγειν οὐδαμῶς εὔπορον.
ATH.: I will tell you indeed; for to speak in opposition to what are often ten thousand mouths is by no means easy.
ΚΛ. τί δέ;
CL.: What?
σμικρὰ καὶ ὀλίγα δοκεῖ σοι τὰ ἔμπροσθεν ἡμῖν εἰρημένα περὶ νόμων κεῖσθαι τοῖς πολλοῖς ὑπεναντία;
Do the things previously spoken by us concerning laws seem to you to be small and few in standing in opposition to the many?
ΑΘ. καὶ μάλα ἀληθὲς τοῦτό γε λέγεις·
ATH.: Indeed, you speak what is very true.
κελεύεις γὰρ δή με, ὡς ἐμοὶ φαίνεται, τῆς αὐτῆς ὁδοῦ ἐχθοδοποῦ γεγονυίας πολλοῖς—ἴσως δʼ οὐκ ἐλάττοσιν ἑτέροις προσφιλοῦς· εἰ δὲ ἐλάττοσιν, οὔκουν χείροσί γε—μεθʼ ὧν διακελεύῃ με παρακινδυνεύοντά τε καὶ θαρροῦντα τὴν νῦν ἐκ τῶν παρόντων λόγων τετμημένην ὁδὸν τῆς νομοθεσίας πορεύεσθαι μηδὲν ἀνιέντα.
For indeed, you order me, as it seems to me, to travel the same path, which has become hateful to many—but perhaps dear to others who are not fewer; and if fewer, certainly not worse—with whom you exhort me, risking and taking courage, to travel the path of legislation now cut out from our present discussions, slackening nothing.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL.: What else?
§7.811ΑΘ. οὐ τοίνυν ἀνίημι.
ATH.: Therefore I do not slacken.
λέγω μὴν ὅτι ποιηταί τε ἡμῖν εἰσίν τινες ἐπῶν ἑξαμέτρων πάμπολλοι καὶ τριμέτρων καὶ πάντων δὴ τῶν λεγομένων μέτρων, οἱ μὲν ἐπὶ σπουδήν, οἱ δʼ ἐπὶ γέλωτα ὡρμηκότες, ἐν οἷς φασι δεῖν οἱ πολλάκις μυρίοι τοὺς ὀρθῶς παιδευομένους τῶν νέων τρέφειν καὶ διακορεῖς ποιεῖν, πολυηκόους τʼ ἐν ταῖς ἀναγνώσεσιν ποιοῦντας καὶ πολυμαθεῖς, ὅλους ποιητὰς ἐκμανθάνοντας·
I say indeed that we have some poets of hexameter verses, very many, and of trimeters, and indeed of all the so-called meters, some having rushed toward serious matters, and others toward laughter, in whose works the often ten thousand say that the young who are being rightly educated must be reared and made filled to satiety, making them extensive listeners in readings and of wide learning, by learning whole poets thoroughly by heart.
οἱ δὲ ἐκ πάντων κεφάλαια ἐκλέξαντες καί τινας ὅλας ῥήσεις εἰς ταὐτὸν συναγαγόντες, ἐκμανθάνειν φασὶ δεῖν εἰς μνήμην τιθεμένους, εἰ μέλλει τις ἀγαθὸς ἡμῖν καὶ σοφὸς ἐκ πολυπειρίας καὶ πολυμαθίας γενέσθαι.
And others, having selected summaries out of all and gathered certain entire speeches into the same place, say they must learn them thoroughly by heart, committing them to memory, if someone is to become good and wise for us from wide experience and wide learning.
τούτοις δὴ σὺ κελεύεις ἐμὲ τὰ νῦν παρρησιαζόμενον ἀποφαίνεσθαι τί τε καλῶς λέγουσι καὶ τί μή;
Is it to these indeed that you order me, speaking freely at present, to declare what they say well and what they do not?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL.: How indeed could I not?
ΑΘ. τί δή ποτʼ ἂν οὖν περὶ ἁπάντων τούτων ἑνὶ λόγῳ φράζων εἴποιμʼ ἂν ἱκανόν;
ATH.: What in the world, then, would I say that is sufficient, expressing it in a single word concerning all of these?
οἶμαι μὲν τὸ τοιόνδε σχεδόν, ὃ καὶ πᾶς ἄν μοι συγχωρήσειεν, πολλὰ μὲν ἕκαστον τούτων εἰρηκέναι καλῶς, πολλὰ δὲ καὶ τοὐναντίον· εἰ δʼ οὕτω τοῦτʼ ἔχει, κίνδυνόν φημι εἶναι φέρουσαν τοῖς παισὶν τὴν πολυμαθίαν.
I think, nearly, something of this sort, which also everyone would concede to me: that each of these has spoken many things well, but also many things the opposite; and if this is so, I say that wide learning brings danger to children.
ΚΛ. πῶς οὖν καὶ τί παραινοίης ἂν τῷ νομοφύλακι;
CL.: How then, and what, would you advise the guardian of the laws?
ΑΘ. τοῦ πέρι λέγεις;
ATH.: Concerning what do you speak?
ΚΛ. τοῦ πρὸς τί παράδειγμά ποτε ἀποβλέψας ἂν τὸ μὲν ἐῴη πάντας μανθάνειν τοὺς νέους, τὸ δʼ ἀποκωλύοι.
CL.: Regarding what sort of exemplar he should ever look toward, so as, on the one hand, to permit all the young to learn some things, and on the other hand, to prevent them from others.
λέγε καὶ μηδὲν ἀπόκνει λέγων.
Speak and do not hesitate at all in speaking.
ΑΘ. ὠγαθὲ Κλεινία, κινδυνεύω κατά γέ τινα τρόπον ηὐτυχηκέναι.
ATH.: My good Cleinias, I seem in a certain way to have been fortunate.
ΚΛ. τοῦ δὴ πέρι;
CL.: Concerning what indeed?
ΑΘ. τοῦ μὴ παντάπασι παραδείγματος ἀπορεῖν.
ATH.: Concerning not being altogether at a loss for an exemplar.
νῦν γὰρ ἀποβλέψας πρὸς τοὺς λόγους οὓς ἐξ ἕω μέχρι δεῦρο δὴ διεληλύθαμεν ἡμεῖς—ὡς μὲν ἐμοὶ φαινόμεθα, οὐκ ἄνευ τινὸς ἐπιπνοίας θεῶν—ἔδοξαν δʼ οὖν μοι παντάπασι ποιήσει τινὶ προσομοίως εἰρῆσθαι.
For now, looking toward the discussions which we have gone through from dawn until here—as it seems to me, indeed, not without some inspiration of the gods—they appeared to me at any rate to have been spoken in a way altogether similar to a certain poetry.
καί μοι ἴσως οὐδὲν θαυμαστὸν πάθος ἐπῆλθε, λόγους οἰκείους οἷον ἁθρόους ἐπιβλέψαντι μάλα ἡσθῆναι·
And perhaps no wondrous feeling came upon me in being greatly pleased to look upon our own discussions, as it were, all at once.
τῶν γὰρ δὴ πλείστων λόγων οὓς ἐν ποιήμασιν ἢ χύδην οὕτως εἰρημένους μεμάθηκα καὶ ἀκήκοα, πάντων μοι μετριώτατοί γε εἶναι κατεφάνησαν καὶ προσήκοντες τὰ μάλιστα ἀκούειν νέοις.
For indeed, of the very many discussions which I have learned and heard, whether spoken in poems or in prose in this way, these appeared to me to be the most moderate of all and most especially fitting for the young to hear.
τῷ δὴ νομοφύλακί τε καὶ παιδευτῇ παράδειγμα οὐκ ἂν ἔχοιμι, ὡς οἶμαι, τούτου βέλτιον φράζειν, ἢ ταῦτά τε διδάσκειν παρακελεύεσθαι τοῖσι διδασκάλοις τοὺς παῖδας, τά τε τούτων ἐχόμενα καὶ ὅμοια, ἂν ἄρα που περιτυγχάνῃ ποιητῶν τε ποιήματα διεξιὼν καὶ γεγραμμένα καταλογάδην ἢ καὶ ψιλῶς οὕτως ἄνευ τοῦ γεγράφθαι λεγόμενα, ἀδελφά που τούτων τῶν λόγων, μὴ μεθιέναι τρόπῳ μηδενί, γράφεσθαι δέ·
Indeed, for the guardian of the laws and the educator, I would not have, as I think, a better exemplar to state than this: to exhort the teachers to teach the children these very things, and the things holding close to and similar to these; and if by chance, in going through the poems of poets and writings in prose, or even spoken simply in this way without being written down, he meets with things that are somehow brothers to these discussions, he must by no means let them go, but have them written down.