§6.782ΑΘ. πάλιν τοίνυν ἐπὶ τὰ πρῶτα ἐπαναχωρήσωμεν λεχθέντα.
ATH.: Let us then return to the first things that were said.
εὖ γὰρ δὴ τό γε τοσοῦτον χρὴ πάντʼ ἄνδρα συννοεῖν, ὡς ἡ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένεσις ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀρχὴν οὐδεμίαν εἴληχεν οὐδʼ ἕξει ποτέ γε τελευτήν, ἀλλʼ ἦν τε ἀεὶ καὶ ἔσται πάντως, ἢ μῆκός τι τῆς ἀρχῆς ἀφʼ οὗ γέγονεν ἀμήχανον ἂν χρόνον ὅσον γεγονὸς ἂν εἴη.
For indeed, every man ought to bear at least this much in mind: that either the human race had no beginning at all and will never have an end, but always was and certainly will be, or the length of time since it began must be an inconceivable amount of time since it came into being.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CLE.: Of course.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH.: What then?
πόλεων συστάσεις καὶ φθοράς, καὶ ἐπιτηδεύματα παντοῖα τάξεώς τε καὶ ἀταξίας, καὶ βρώσεως καὶ πωμάτων τε ἅμα καὶ βρωμάτων ἐπιθυμήματα παντοδαπά, πάντως καὶ περὶ πᾶσαν τὴν γῆν ἆρʼ οὐκ οἰόμεθα γεγονέναι, καὶ στροφὰς ὡρῶν παντοίας, ἐν αἷς τὰ ζῷα μεταβάλλειν αὑτῶν παμπληθεῖς μεταβολὰς εἰκός;
Do we not believe that the establishments and ruins of cities, and all kinds of practices of order and disorder, and all sorts of desires for food and drink and diet, have occurred in every way and all over the earth, and all kinds of seasonal changes, in which it is likely that animals underwent numerous changes of their own?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CLE.: How could we not?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH.: What then?
πιστεύομεν ἀμπέλους τε φανῆναί πού ποτε πρότερον οὐκ οὔσας;
Do we believe that vines once appeared somewhere before, having not existed previously?
ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ ἐλάας καὶ τὰ Δήμητρός τε καὶ Κόρης δῶρα;
And in the same way, olives and the gifts of Demeter and Kore?
Τριπτόλεμόν τέ τινα τῶν τοιούτων γενέσθαι διάκονον;
And that some Triptolemus became the minister of such things?
ἐν ᾧ δὲ μὴ ταῦτα ἦν τῷ χρόνῳ, μῶν οὐκ οἰόμεθα τὰ ζῷα, καθάπερ νῦν, ἐπὶ τὴν ἀλλήλων ἐδωδὴν τρέπεσθαι;
And during the time when these did not exist, do we not think that animals, just as now, turned to eating one another?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CLE.: Of course.
ΑΘ. τὸ δὲ μὴν θύειν ἀνθρώπους ἀλλήλους ἔτι καὶ νῦν παραμένον ὁρῶμεν πολλοῖς· καὶ τοὐναντίον ἀκούομεν ἐν ἄλλοις, ὅτε οὐδὲ βοὸς ἐτόλμων μὲν γεύεσθαι, θύματά τε οὐκ ἦν τοῖς θεοῖσι ζῷα, πέλανοι δὲ καὶ μέλιτι καρποὶ δεδευμένοι καὶ τοιαῦτα ἄλλα ἁγνὰ θύματα, σαρκῶν δʼ ἀπείχοντο ὡς οὐχ ὅσιον ὂν ἐσθίειν οὐδὲ τοὺς τῶν θεῶν βωμοὺς αἵματι μιαίνειν, ἀλλὰ Ὀρφικοί τινες λεγόμενοι βίοι ἐγίγνοντο ἡμῶν τοῖς τότε, ἀψύχων μὲν ἐχόμενοι πάντων, ἐμψύχων δὲ τοὐναντίον πάντων ἀπεχόμενοι.
ATH.: But indeed, we see the custom of humans sacrificing one another still remaining among many even now; and conversely, we hear of others in other times, when they did not even dare to taste beef, and their sacrifices to the gods were not animals, but cakes and fruits moistened with honey and other such pure offerings, and they abstained from meat as though it were not pious to eat it or to defile the altars of the gods with blood, but some so-called Orphic lives were led by our ancestors of that time, holding to all things without life, and conversely abstaining from all things with life.
ΚΛ. καὶ σφόδρα λεγόμενά τʼ εἴρηκας καὶ πιστεύεσθαι πιθανά.
CLE.: What you have said is indeed very commonly spoken of and plausible to believe.
ΑΘ. πρὸς οὖν δὴ τί ταῦτα, εἴποι τις ἄν, ὑμῖν πάντʼ ἐρρήθη τὰ νῦν; ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς ὑπέλαβες, ὦ ξένε.
ATH.: "For what purpose, then," someone might say, "were all these things said to you just now?" CLE.: You have understood correctly, Stranger.
ΑΘ. καὶ τοίνυν, ἐὰν δύνωμαι, τὰ τούτοις ἑξῆς, ὦ Κλεινία, πειράσομαι φράζειν.
ATH.: And so, if I am able, Cleinias, I will try to state the things following these.
ΚΛ. λέγοις ἄν.
CLE.: Speak on.
ΑΘ. ὁρῶ πάντα τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐκ τριττῆς χρείας καὶ ἐπιθυμίας ἠρτημένα, διʼ ὧν ἀρετή τε αὐτοῖς ἀγομένοις ὀρθῶς καὶ τοὐναντίον ἀποβαίνει κακῶς ἀχθεῖσιν.
ATH.: I see that all things for humans depend on a threefold need and desire, through which virtue arises for them if they are led correctly, and the opposite turns out badly if they are led poorly.
ταῦτα δʼ ἐστὶν ἐδωδὴ μὲν καὶ πόσις εὐθὺς γενομένοις, ἣν πέρι ἅπασαν πᾶν ζῷον ἔμφυτον ἔρωτα ἔχον, μεστὸν οἴστρου τέ ἐστιν καὶ ἀνηκουστίας τοῦ λέγοντος ἄλλο τι δεῖν πράττειν πλὴν τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ ἐπιθυμίας τὰς περὶ ἅπαντα ταῦτα ἀποπληροῦντα, λύπης τῆς ἁπάσης ἀεὶ δεῖν σφᾶς ἀπαλλάττειν· §6.783ΑΘ. τρίτη δὲ ἡμῖν καὶ μεγίστη χρεία καὶ ἔρως ὀξύτατος ὕστατος μὲν ὁρμᾶται, διαπυρωτάτους δὲ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους μανίαις ἀπεργάζεται πάντως, ὁ περὶ τὴν τοῦ γένους σπορὰν ὕβρει πλείστῃ καόμενος.
These are, immediately upon being born, food and drink, concerning all of which every animal has an innate desire, and is full of frenzy and deaf to anyone saying that they must do anything else than satisfy their pleasures and desires concerning all these things, and always free themselves from all pain; ATH.: and our third and greatest need and sharpest desire, which is the last to arise, but makes humans altogether most burning with madness, is that concerning the sowing of the race, burning with the greatest passion.
ἃ δὴ δεῖ τρία νοσήματα, τρέποντα εἰς τὸ βέλτιστον παρὰ τὸ λεγόμενον ἥδιστον, τρισὶ μὲν τοῖς μεγίστοις πειρᾶσθαι κατέχειν, φόβῳ καὶ νόμῳ καὶ τῷ ἀληθεῖ λόγῳ, προσχρωμένους μέντοι Μούσαις τε καὶ ἀγωνίοισι θεοῖς, σβεννύντων τὴν αὔξην τε καὶ ἐπιρροήν.
These three diseases, turning them toward the best instead of what is called the most pleasant, one must try to restrain by the three greatest things—fear, law, and true reason—using moreover the Muses and the gods of contests, to extinguish their growth and influx.
παίδων δὲ δὴ γένεσιν μετὰ τοὺς γάμους θῶμεν, καὶ μετὰ γένεσιν τροφὴν καὶ παιδείαν· καὶ τάχʼ ἂν οὕτω προϊόντων τῶν λόγων ὅ τε νόμος ἡμῖν ἕκαστος περαίνοιτο εἰς τοὔμπροσθεν ἐπὶ συσσίτια ἡνίκα ἀφικόμεθα—τὰς τοιαύτας κοινωνίας εἴτε ἄρα γυναικῶν εἴτε ἀνδρῶν δεῖ μόνων γίγνεσθαι, προσμείξαντες αὐτοῖς ἐγγύθεν ἴσως μᾶλλον κατοψόμεθα—τά τε ἐπίπροσθεν αὐτῶν, ἔτι νῦν ὄντα ἀνομοθέτητα, τάξαντες αὐτὰ ἐπίπροσθεν ποιησόμεθα, καὶ ὅπερ ἐρρήθη νυνδή, κατοψόμεθά τε αὐτὰ ἀκριβέστερον, μᾶλλόν τε τοὺς προσήκοντας αὐτοῖς καὶ πρέποντας νόμους ἂν θείημεν.
And let us place the procreation of children after marriage, and after procreation, their nurture and education; and perhaps as our arguments proceed in this way, each of our laws will advance forward to the common meals, when we arrive there—whether such associations must be of women or of men alone, we shall perhaps see more clearly by approaching them closely—and we shall place the things prior to them, which are still now unlegislated, arranging them beforehand, and as was said just now, we shall see them more accurately, and we would establish laws that are more suitable and proper for them.
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
CLE.: You speak most correctly.
ΑΘ. φυλάξωμεν τοίνυν τῇ μνήμῃ τὰ νυνδὴ λεχθέντα· ἴσως γὰρ χρείαν ποτʼ αὐτῶν πάντων ἕξομεν.
ATH.: Let us then keep in memory the things just said; for perhaps we shall some day have need of them all.
ΚΛ. τὰ ποῖα δὴ διακελεύῃ;
CLE.: What kind of things indeed do you enjoin?
ΑΘ. ἃ τοῖς τρισὶ διωριζόμεθα ῥήμασι· βρῶσιν μὲν ἐλέγομέν που, καὶ δεύτερον πόσιν, καὶ ἀφροδισίων δέ τινα διαπτόησιν τρίτον.
ATH.: Those which we defined by three terms: eating indeed, we said, and secondly drinking, and thirdly a certain excitement of sexual desires.
ΚΛ. πάντως, ὦ ξένε, μεμνησόμεθά που ὧν τὰ νῦν διακελεύῃ.
CLE.: Assuredly, Stranger, we shall remember what you now enjoin.
ΑΘ. καλῶς.
ATH.: Good.
ἔλθωμεν δʼ ἐπὶ τὰ νυμφικά, διδάξοντές τε αὐτοὺς πῶς χρὴ καὶ τίνα τρόπον τοὺς παῖδας ποιεῖσθαι, καὶ ἐὰν ἄρα μὴ πείθωμεν, ἀπειλήσοντές τισιν νόμοις.
And let us proceed to the marriage matters, teaching them how and in what manner they must produce children, and if we do not persuade them, threatening them with certain laws.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CLE.: How?
ΑΘ. νύμφην χρὴ διανοεῖσθαι καὶ νυμφίον ὡς ὅτι καλλίστους καὶ ἀρίστους εἰς δύναμιν ἀποδειξομένους παῖδας τῇ πόλει.
ATH.: The bride and bridegroom must intend to produce children for the city as beautiful and as good as possible.
πάντες δʼ ἄνθρωποι κοινωνοὶ πάσης πράξεως, ἡνίκα μὲν ἂν προσέχωσιν αὑτοῖς τε καὶ τῇ πράξει τὸν νοῦν, πάντα καλὰ καὶ ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζονται, μὴ προσέχοντες δὲ ἢ μὴ ἔχοντες νοῦν, τἀναντία.
And all humans who are partners in any action, when they pay attention to themselves and to the action, produce all beautiful and good things, but when they do not pay attention or do not have mind, the opposite.