§6.780ΑΘ. ὅστις δὴ διανοεῖται πόλεσιν ἀποφαίνεσθαι νόμους, πῇ τὰ δημόσια καὶ κοινὰ αὐτοὺς χρὴ ζῆν πράττοντας, τῶν δὲ ἰδίων ὅσον ἀνάγκη μηδὲ οἴεται δεῖν, ἐξουσίαν δὲ ἑκάστοις εἶναι τὴν ἡμέραν ζῆν ὅπως ἂν ἐθέλῃ, καὶ μὴ πάντα διὰ τάξεως δεῖν γίγνεσθαι, προέμενος δὲ τὰ ἴδια ἀνομοθέτητα, ἡγεῖται τά γε κοινὰ καὶ δημόσια ἐθελήσειν αὐτοὺς ζῆν διὰ νόμων, οὐκ ὀρθῶς διανοεῖται.
ATH.: Anyone who intends to declare laws for cities, regulating how they ought to live their lives in managing public and common affairs, but thinks that for private affairs there is no need to lay down laws even for what is necessary, and that individuals should have the license to live each day as they please, and that not everything must happen through order—leaving private affairs unlegislated while imagining that they will wish to live according to laws in their public and common affairs—does not think correctly.
τίνος δὴ χάριν ταῦτα εἴρηται;
For what reason then has this been said?
τοῦδε, ὅτι φήσομεν δεῖν ἡμῖν τοὺς νυμφίους μηδὲν διαφερόντως μηδὲ ἧττον ἐν συσσιτίοις τὴν δίαιταν ποιεῖσθαι τοῦ πρὸ τῶν γάμων χρόνου γενομένου.
For this: because we shall say that our bridegrooms must make their way of life in common meals (syssitia) in no way differently nor less than in the time that occurred before their marriage.
καὶ τοῦτο μὲν δὴ θαυμαστὸν ὄν, ὅτε κατʼ ἀρχὰς πρῶτον ἐγένετο ἐν τοῖς παρʼ ὑμῖν τόποις, πολέμου τινὸς αὐτό, ὥς γʼ εἰκός, νομοθετήσαντος ἤ τινος ἑτέρου τὴν αὐτὴν δύναμιν ἔχοντος πράγματος ἐν ὀλιγανθρωπίαις ὑπὸ πολλῆς ἀπορίας ἐχομένοις, γευσαμένοις δὲ καὶ ἀναγκασθεῖσι χρήσασθαι τοῖς συσσιτίοις ἔδοξεν μέγα διαφέρειν εἰς σωτηρίαν τὸ νόμιμον, καὶ κατέστη δὴ τρόπῳ τινὶ τοιούτῳ τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα ὑμῖν τὸ τῶν συσσιτίων.
And while this was indeed a wondrous thing when it first arose in your regions—some war, as is likely, having legislated it, or some other event having the same power when you were held by great distress during a shortage of population—yet to those who tasted it and were compelled to use the common meals, this custom seemed to make a great difference for safety, and in some such way the practice of common meals was established among you.
ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.
CLE.: It certainly seems so.
ΑΘ. ὃ δὴ ἔλεγον, ὅτι θαυμαστὸν ὂν τοῦτό ποτε καὶ φοβερὸν ἐπιτάξαι τισίν, νῦν οὐχ ὁμοίως τῷ προστάττοντι δυσχερὲς ἂν εἴη νομοθετεῖν αὐτό·
ATH.: What I was saying then, that though it was once a wondrous and formidable thing to command this to anyone, now it would not be similarly difficult for the one who orders it to legislate it.
τὸ δʼ ἑξῆς τούτῳ, πεφυκός τε ὀρθῶς ἂν γίγνεσθαι γιγνόμενον, νῦν τε οὐδαμῇ γιγνόμενον, ὀλίγου τε ποιοῦν τὸν νομοθέτην, τὸ τῶν παιζόντων, εἰς πῦρ ξαίνειν καὶ μυρία ἕτερα τοιαῦτα ἀνήνυτα ποιοῦντα δρᾶν, οὐ ῥᾴδιον οὔτʼ εἰπεῖν οὔτʼ εἰπόντα ἀποτελεῖν.
But the point following this—which would naturally turn out correctly if it were done, but is now done nowhere, and which makes the legislator seem almost, as the saying goes, to be combing wool into fire and doing countless other such futile things—is not easy either to speak of or, having spoken, to accomplish.
ΚΛ. τί δὴ τοῦτο, ὦ ξένε, ἐπιχειρῶν λέγειν ἔοικας σφόδρα ἀποκνεῖν;
CLE.: What is this, Stranger, that you seem to shrink from so much when attempting to say it?
ΑΘ. ἀκούοιτʼ ἄν, ἵνα μὴ πολλὴ διατριβὴ γίγνηται περὶ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ μάτην.
ATH.: You shall hear, so that there may not be a great waste of time about this very matter in vain.
πᾶν μὲν γάρ, ὅτιπερ ἂν τάξεως καὶ νόμου μετέχον ἐν πόλει γίγνηται, πάντα ἀγαθὰ ἀπεργάζεται, τῶν δὲ ἀτάκτων ἢ τῶν κακῶς ταχθέντων λύει τὰ πολλὰ τῶν εὖ τεταγμένων ἄλλα ἕτερα.
For everything that takes place in a city participating in order and law produces all good things, but of things that are disordered or badly ordered, they ruin most of the other things that are well ordered.
οὗ δὴ καὶ νῦν ἐφέστηκεν πέρι τὸ λεγόμενον.
And this is precisely where the present discussion stands.
ὑμῖν γάρ, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, τὰ μὲν περὶ τοὺς ἄνδρας συσσίτια καλῶς ἅμα καί, ὅπερ εἶπον, θαυμαστῶς καθέστηκεν ἐκ θείας τινὸς ἀνάγκης, τὸ δὲ περὶ τὰς γυναῖκας οὐδαμῶς ὀρθῶς ἀνομοθέτητον μεθεῖται καὶ οὐκ εἰς τὸ φῶς ἦκται τὸ τῆς συσσιτίας αὐτῶν ἐπιτήδευμα, §6.781ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ ὃ καὶ ἄλλως γένος ἡμῶν τῶν ἀνθρώπων λαθραιότερον μᾶλλον καὶ ἐπικλοπώτερον ἔφυ, τὸ θῆλυ, διὰ τὸ ἀσθενές, οὐκ ὀρθῶς τοῦτο εἴξαντος τοῦ νομοθέτου δύστακτον ὂν ἀφείθη.
For you, Cleinias and Megillus, the common meals for men are established beautifully and, as I said, wondrously from some divine necessity; but the matter concerning women is left unlegislated in an altogether incorrect way, and the practice of their common meals has not been brought to light, ATH.: but rather, that gender of ours which is otherwise naturally more secretive and stealthy, the female, because of its weakness, has been left unregulated because the legislator yielded to this incorrectly.
διὰ δὲ τούτου μεθειμένου πολλὰ ὑμῖν παρέρρει, πολὺ ἄμεινον ἂν ἔχοντα, εἰ νόμων ἔτυχεν, ἢ τὰ νῦν·
And because this has been neglected, many things have slipped away from you, which would have been in a much better state than they are now if they had met with laws.
οὐ γὰρ ἥμισυ μόνον ἐστίν, ὡς δόξειεν ἄν, τὸ περὶ τὰς γυναῖκας ἀκοσμήτως περιορώμενον, ὅσῳ δὲ ἡ θήλεια ἡμῖν φύσις ἐστὶ πρὸς ἀρετὴν χείρων τῆς τῶν ἀρρένων, τοσούτῳ διαφέρει πρὸς τὸ πλέον ἢ διπλάσιον εἶναι.
For the unregulated neglect of women is not merely a half, as it might seem, but by as much as our female nature is inferior to that of males with respect to virtue, by so much does it make a difference so as to be more than double.
τοῦτʼ οὖν ἐπαναλαβεῖν καὶ ἐπανορθώσασθαι καὶ πάντα συντάξασθαι κοινῇ γυναιξί τε καὶ ἀνδράσιν ἐπιτηδεύματα βέλτιον πρὸς πόλεως εὐδαιμονίαν·
Therefore, to take this up again and correct it, and to arrange all practices in common for both women and men, is better for the happiness of the city.
νῦν δὲ οὕτως ἦκται τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος οὐδαμῶς εἰς τοῦτο εὐτυχῶς, ὥστε οὐδὲ μνησθῆναι περὶ αὐτοῦ ἐν ἄλλοις γʼ ἐστὶν τόποις καὶ πόλεσιν νοῦν ἔχοντος, ὅπου μηδὲ συσσίτια ὑπάρχει τὸ παράπαν δεδογμένα κατὰ πόλιν εἶναι.
But now, the human race has been led in such an unfortunate way in this respect that in other places and cities it is not even possible for a sensible person to mention it, where there are no public common meals established in the city at all.
πόθεν δή τίς γε ἔργῳ μὴ καταγελάστως ἐπιχειρήσει γυναῖκας προσβιάζεσθαι τὴν σίτων καὶ ποτῶν ἀνάλωσιν φανερὰν θεωρεῖσθαι;
How indeed could anyone attempt in practice, without being ridiculous, to compel women to let their consumption of food and drink be seen openly?
τούτου γὰρ οὐκ ἔστιν ὅτι χαλεπώτερον ἂν ὑπομείνειεν τοῦτο τὸ γένος· εἰθισμένον γὰρ δεδυκὸς καὶ σκοτεινὸν ζῆν, ἀγόμενον δʼ εἰς φῶς βίᾳ πᾶσαν ἀντίτασιν ἀντιτεῖνον, πολὺ κρατήσει τοῦ νομοθέτου.
For there is nothing more difficult than this that this gender would endure; for having been accustomed to living a retired and dark life, and being dragged into the light by force, resisting with all resistance, they will easily overcome the legislator.
τοῦτʼ οὖν ἄλλοθι μέν, ὅπερ εἶπον, οὐδʼ ἂν τὸν λόγον ὑπομείνειε τὸν ὀρθὸν ῥηθέντα ἄνευ πάσης βοῆς, ἐνθάδε δὲ ἴσως ἄν.
Therefore, elsewhere, as I said, they would not even endure the correct argument being spoken without all clamor, but here perhaps they might.
εἰ δὴ δοκεῖ λόγου γʼ ἕνεκα μὴ ἀτυχῆ τὸν περὶ πάσης τῆς πολιτείας γενέσθαι λόγον, ἐθέλω λέγειν ὡς ἀγαθόν ἐστι καὶ πρέπον, εἰ καὶ σφῷν συνδοκεῖ ἀκούειν, εἰ δὲ μή, ἐᾶν.
If indeed it seems best, for the sake of the argument, that the discourse on the entire constitution should not be incomplete, I am willing to say why it is good and proper, if it also seems good to both of you to listen; but if not, to let it go.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, θαυμαστῶς τό γε ἀκοῦσαι νῷν πάντως που συνδοκεῖ.
CLE.: Indeed, Stranger, to listen is altogether and wonderfully agreeable to both of us.
ΑΘ. ἀκούωμεν δή.
ATH.: Let us listen then.
θαυμάσητε δὲ μηδὲν ἐὰν ὑμῖν ἄνωθέν ποθεν ἐπιχειρεῖν δόξω· σχολῆς γὰρ ἀπολαύομεν καὶ οὐδὲν ἡμᾶς ἐστὶ τὸ κατεπεῖγον τὸ μὴ πάντῃ πάντως σκοπεῖν τὰ περὶ τοὺς νόμους.
And do not wonder at all if I seem to you to attempt to begin from some point high up; for we enjoy leisure, and there is nothing urgent to prevent us from examining the matters of the laws in every possible way.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς εἴρηκας.
CLE.: You have spoken correctly.