§4.714ΑΘ. λέγει δὴ καὶ νῦν οὗτος ὁ λόγος, ἀληθείᾳ χρώμενος, ὡς ὅσων ἂν πόλεων μὴ θεὸς ἀλλά τις ἄρχῃ θνητός, οὐκ ἔστιν κακῶν αὐτοῖς οὐδὲ πόνων ἀνάφυξις· ἀλλὰ μιμεῖσθαι δεῖν ἡμᾶς οἴεται πάσῃ μηχανῇ τὸν ἐπὶ τοῦ Κρόνου λεγόμενον βίον, καὶ ὅσον ἐν ἡμῖν ἀθανασίας ἔνεστι, τούτῳ πειθομένους δημοσίᾳ καὶ ἰδίᾳ τάς τʼ οἰκήσεις καὶ τὰς πόλεις διοικεῖν, τὴν τοῦ νοῦ διανομὴν ἐπονομάζοντας νόμον.
ATH. Therefore this argument, employing truth, says even now that for whatever cities a mortal, and not a god, rules, there is no escape for them from evils and labors; but it thinks that we must imitate by every means the life spoken of in the time of Cronus, and obeying whatever of immortality is in us, we should administer both our households and our cities publicly and privately, calling the distribution of intellect "law".
εἰ δʼ ἄνθρωπος εἷς ἢ ὀλιγαρχία τις, ἢ καὶ δημοκρατία ψυχὴν ἔχουσα ἡδονῶν καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ὀρεγομένην καὶ πληροῦσθαι τούτων δεομένην, στέγουσαν δὲ οὐδὲν ἀλλʼ ἀνηνύτῳ καὶ ἀπλήστῳ κακῷ νοσήματι συνεχομένην, ἄρξει δὴ πόλεως ἤ τινος ἰδιώτου καταπατήσας ὁ τοιοῦτος τοὺς νόμους, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, οὐκ ἔστι σωτηρίας μηχανή.
But if a single man, or some oligarchy, or even a democracy, possessing a soul that yearns for pleasures and desires and demands to be filled with them, but containing nothing and held fast by an endless and insatiable evil disease, should rule over a city or some individual, having trampled upon the laws, there is, as we were just saying, no means of salvation.
σκοπεῖν δὴ δεῖ τοῦτον τὸν λόγον ἡμᾶς, ὦ Κλεινία, πότερον αὐτῷ πεισόμεθα ἢ πῶς δράσομεν.
We must indeed consider this argument, Cleinias, whether we shall obey it, or how we shall act.
ΚΛ. ἀνάγκη δήπου πείθεσθαι.
CL. It is surely necessary to obey.
ΑΘ. ἐννοεῖς οὖν ὅτι νόμων εἴδη τινές φασιν εἶναι τοσαῦτα ὅσαπερ πολιτειῶν, πολιτειῶν δὲ ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν ὅσα λέγουσιν οἱ πολλοί;
ATH. Do you reflect, then, that some say there are as many kinds of laws as there are of constitutions, and we have just gone through how many constitutions the many speak of?
μὴ δὴ φαύλου πέρι νομίσῃς εἶναι τὴν νῦν ἀμφισβήτησιν, περὶ δὲ τοῦ μεγίστου· τὸ γὰρ δίκαιον καὶ ἄδικον οἷ χρὴ βλέπειν, πάλιν ἡμῖν ἀμφισβητούμενον ἐλήλυθεν.
Do not think that the present dispute is about a trivial matter, but about the greatest; for the question of where justice and injustice ought to look has come back to us as a matter of dispute.
οὔτε γὰρ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον οὔτε πρὸς ἀρετὴν ὅλην βλέπειν δεῖν φασι τοὺς νόμους, ἀλλʼ ἥτις ἂν καθεστηκυῖα ᾖ πολιτεία, ταύτῃ ἰδεῖν τὸ συμφέρον, ὅπως ἄρξει τε ἀεὶ καὶ μὴ καταλυθήσεται, καὶ τὸν φύσει ὅρον τοῦ δικαίου λέγεσθαι κάλλισθʼ οὕτω.
For they say that the laws ought to look neither to war nor to the whole of virtue, but rather to see the advantage for whatever constitution has been established, so that it may always rule and not be destroyed, and that the natural definition of justice is best stated in this way.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CL. How?
ΑΘ. ὅτι τὸ τοῦ κρείττονος συμφέρον ἐστίν.
ATH. That it is the advantage of the stronger.
ΚΛ. λέγʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.
CL. Speak still more clearly.
ΑΘ. ὧδε.
ATH. In this way.
τίθεται δήπου, φασίν, τοὺς νόμους ἐν τῇ πόλει ἑκάστοτε τὸ κρατοῦν.
They say, surely, that the ruling power in the city establishes the laws in each case.
ἦ γάρ;
Is it not so?
ΚΛ. ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
CL. You speak the truth.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οἴει, φασίν, ποτὲ δῆμον νικήσαντα, ἤ τινα πολιτείαν ἄλλην, ἢ καὶ τύραννον, θήσεσθαι ἑκόντα πρὸς ἄλλο τι πρῶτον νόμους ἢ τὸ συμφέρον ἑαυτῷ τῆς ἀρχῆς τοῦ μένειν;
ATH. Do you think then, they say, that a victorious populace, or any other constitution, or even a tyrant, would ever voluntarily establish laws with any other primary aim than what is advantageous to himself for the preservation of his rule?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ ἄν;
CL. For how could they?
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὃς ἂν ταῦτα τὰ τεθέντα παραβαίνῃ, κολάσει ὁ θέμενος ὡς ἀδικοῦντα, δίκαια εἶναι ταῦτʼ ἐπονομάζων;
ATH. Therefore, whoever transgresses these established laws, the lawgiver will punish as a wrongdoer, calling these things just?
ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.
CL. It seems so, at least.
ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἄρʼ ἀεὶ καὶ οὕτω καὶ ταύτῃ τὸ δίκαιον ἂν ἔχοι.
ATH. This, then, is how and in this direction justice would always stand.
ΚΛ. φησὶ γοῦν οὗτος ὁ λόγος.
CL. This argument, at least, says so.
ΑΘ. ἔστι γὰρ τοῦτο ἓν ἐκείνων τῶν ἀξιωμάτων ἀρχῆς πέρι.
ATH. For this is one of those claims concerning rule.
ΚΛ. ποίων δή;
CL. What kind indeed?
§4.715ΑΘ. τῶν ἃ τότε ἐπεσκοποῦμεν, τίνας τίνων ἄρχειν δεῖ.
ATH. Those which we were then examining, as to who ought to rule whom.
καὶ ἐφάνη δὴ γονέας μὲν ἐκγόνων, νεωτέρων δὲ πρεσβυτέρους, γενναίους δὲ ἀγεννῶν, καὶ σύχνʼ ἄττα ἦν ἄλλʼ, εἰ μεμνήμεθα, καὶ ἐμπόδια ἕτερα ἑτέροισι· καὶ δὴ καὶ ἓν ἦν αὐτῶν τοῦτο, καὶ ἔφαμέν που κατὰ φύσιν τὸν Πίνδαρον ἄγειν δικαιοῦντα τὸ βιαιότατον, ὡς φάναι.
And indeed it appeared that parents should rule over offspring, elders over younger ones, noble over ignoble ones, and there were several others, if we remember, even conflicting with one another; and indeed this was one of them, and we said, I believe, that Pindar made it natural when he justified "what is most violent," as he phrased it.
ΚΛ. ναί, ταῦτʼ ἦν ἃ τότε ἐλέχθη.
CL. Yes, those were the things that were then said.
ΑΘ. σκόπει δὴ ποτέροις τισὶν ἡ πόλις ἡμῖν ἐστιν παραδοτέα.
ATH. Consider then to which of the two kinds of people our city is to be handed over.
γέγονεν γὰρ δὴ μυριάκις ἤδη τὸ τοιοῦτον ἔν τισι πόλεσιν.
For such a thing has already happened ten thousand times in certain cities.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
CL. What kind of thing?
ΑΘ. ἀρχῶν περιμαχήτων γενομένων, οἱ νικήσαντες τά τε πράγματα κατὰ τὴν πόλιν οὕτως ἐσφετέρισαν σφόδρα, ὥστε ἀρχῆς μηδʼ ὁτιοῦν μεταδιδόναι τοῖς ἡττηθεῖσιν, μήτε αὐτοῖς μήτε ἐκγόνοις, παραφυλάττοντες δὲ ἀλλήλους ζῶσιν, ὅπως μή ποτέ τις εἰς ἀρχὴν ἀφικόμενος ἐπαναστῇ μεμνημένος τῶν ἔμπροσθεν γεγονότων κακῶν.
ATH. When offices become objects of strife, those who conquer appropriate the affairs of the city so completely to themselves that they do not share even the slightest part of the office with the defeated, neither with them nor with their offspring, and they live watching one another, lest someone ever, having attained office, should rise up in rebellion, remembering the past evils that occurred.
ταύτας δήπου φαμὲν ἡμεῖς νῦν οὔτʼ εἶναι πολιτείας, οὔτʼ ὀρθοὺς νόμους ὅσοι μὴ συμπάσης τῆς πόλεως ἕνεκα τοῦ κοινοῦ ἐτέθησαν· οἳ δʼ ἕνεκά τινων, στασιώτας ἀλλʼ οὐ πολίτας τούτους φαμέν, καὶ τὰ τούτων δίκαια ἅ φασιν εἶναι, μάτην εἰρῆσθαι.
These, surely, we now say are neither constitutions, nor are those correct laws which were not established for the sake of the common good of the whole city; and those established for the sake of some few, we call these people members of a faction but not citizens, and their "just" things, which they say exist, have been spoken in vain.
λέγεται δὲ τοῦδʼ ἕνεκα ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν, ὡς ἡμεῖς τῇ σῇ πόλει ἀρχὰς οὔθʼ ὅτι πλούσιός ἐστίν τις δώσομεν, οὔθʼ ὅτι τῶν τοιούτων ἄλλο οὐδὲν κεκτημένος, ἰσχὺν ἢ μέγεθος ἤ τι γένος· ὃς δʼ ἂν τοῖς τεθεῖσι νόμοις εὐπειθέστατός τε ᾖ καὶ νικᾷ ταύτην τὴν νίκην ἐν τῇ πόλει, τούτῳ φαμὲν καὶ τὴν τῶν θεῶν ὑπηρεσίαν δοτέον εἶναι τὴν μεγίστην τῷ πρώτῳ, καὶ δευτέραν τῷ τὰ δεύτερα κρατοῦντι, καὶ κατὰ λόγον οὕτω τοῖς ἐφεξῆς τὰ μετὰ ταῦθʼ ἕκαστα ἀποδοτέον εἶναι.
And these things are said by us for this reason: that we shall not give offices in your city to anyone because he is rich, nor because he possesses any other of such things, such as strength, or size, or birth; but whoever is most obedient to the established laws and wins this victory in the city, to him we say that the greatest service of the gods must be given, to the first, and the second to him who holds the second place, and in this proportion each of the subsequent offices must be assigned to those who follow in order.
τοὺς δʼ ἄρχοντας λεγομένους νῦν ὑπηρέτας τοῖς νόμοις ἐκάλεσα οὔτι καινοτομίας ὀνομάτων ἕνεκα, ἀλλʼ ἡγοῦμαι παντὸς μᾶλλον εἶναι παρὰ τοῦτο σωτηρίαν τε πόλει καὶ τοὐναντίον.
And those who are now called rulers I have called servants to the laws, not for the sake of innovating names, but because I believe that upon this, more than anything else, depends the salvation of a city and its opposite.
ἐν ᾗ μὲν γὰρ ἂν ἀρχόμενος ᾖ καὶ ἄκυρος νόμος, φθορὰν ὁρῶ τῇ τοιαύτῃ ἑτοίμην οὖσαν· ἐν ᾗ δὲ ἂν δεσπότης τῶν ἀρχόντων, οἱ δὲ ἄρχοντες δοῦλοι τοῦ νόμου, σωτηρίαν καὶ πάντα ὅσα θεοὶ πόλεσιν ἔδοσαν ἀγαθὰ γιγνόμενα καθορῶ.
For in whichever city the law is ruled and without authority, I see destruction ready for such a city; but in whichever city it is master of the rulers, and the rulers are slaves to the law, I behold salvation and all the good things that the gods have given to cities coming to pass.
ΚΛ. ναὶ μὰ Δία, ὦ ξένε·
CL.
καθʼ ἡλικίαν γὰρ ὀξὺ βλέπεις.
Yes, by Zeus, stranger; for you see sharply for your age.
ΑΘ. νέος μὲν γὰρ ὢν πᾶς ἄνθρωπος τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀμβλύτατα αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ ὁρᾷ, γέρων δὲ ὀξύτατα.
ATH. Yes, for every man when young sees such things most dully in comparison with himself, but when old, most sharply.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα.
CL. Most true.
ΑΘ. τί δὴ τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα;
ATH. What then is next?
ἆρʼ οὐχ ἥκοντας μὲν καὶ παρόντας θῶμεν τοὺς ἐποίκους, τὸν δʼ ἑξῆς αὐτοῖς διαπεραντέον ἂν εἴη λόγον;
Shall we not assume that the colonists have arrived and are present, and that we must carry through the subsequent discourse for them?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL. Indeed, how not?