§4.704ΑΘ. φέρε δή, τίνα δεῖ διανοηθῆναί ποτε τὴν πόλιν ἔσεσθαι;
ATH. Come now, what must we conceive the state to be?
λέγω δὲ οὔτι τοὔνομα αὐτῆς ἐρωτῶν ὅτι ποτʼ ἔστι τὰ νῦν, οὐδὲ εἰς τὸν ἔπειτα χρόνον ὅτι δεήσει καλεῖν αὐτήν— τοῦτο μὲν γὰρ τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως καὶ ὁ κατοικισμὸς αὐτῆς ἤ τις τόπος, ἢ ποταμοῦ τινος ἢ κρήνης ἢ θεῶν ἐπωνυμία τῶν ἐν τῷ τόπῳ, προσθείη τὴν αὑτῶν φήμην καινῇ γενομένῃ τῇ πόλει— τόδε δὲ περὶ αὐτῆς ἐστιν ὃ βουλόμενος μᾶλλον ἐπερωτῶ, πότερον ἐπιθαλαττίδιος ἔσται τις ἢ χερσαία.
I do not mean that I am asking what its name is at present, or what it will have to be called in the future—for this indeed might perhaps be bestowed upon the newly founded city by its settlement, or by some place, or the name of some river or spring, or of the gods of the locality, who will give their own name to the new city—but this is what I wish to ask about it rather: whether it will be situated on the sea, or inland.
ΚΛ. σχεδόν, ὦ ξένε, ἀπέχει θαλάττης γε ἡ πόλις, ἧς πέρι τὰ νυνδὴ λεχθέντα ἡμῖν, εἴς τινας ὀγδοήκοντα σταδίους.
CL. The city about which we have just been speaking, stranger, is about eighty stades distant from the sea.
ΑΘ. τί δέ;
ATH. What of it then?
λιμένες ἆρʼ εἰσὶν κατὰ ταῦτα αὐτῆς, ἢ τὸ παράπαν ἀλίμενος;
Are there harbors near it, or is it altogether harborless?
ΚΛ. εὐλίμενος μὲν οὖν ταύτῃ γε ὡς δυνατόν ἐστιν μάλιστα, ὦ ξένε.
CL. On the contrary, stranger, it is extremely well-harbored in that direction, as far as possible.
ΑΘ. παπαί, οἷον λέγεις.
ATH. Good heavens, what a thing to say!
τί δὲ περὶ αὐτὴν ἡ χώρα;
But what about the surrounding country?
πότερα πάμφορος ἢ καί τινων ἐπιδεής;
Is it all-productive, or is it in need of some things?
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν οὐδενὸς ἐπιδεής.
CL. It is in need of almost nothing.
ΑΘ. γείτων δὲ αὐτῆς πόλις ἆρʼ ἔσται τις πλησίον;
ATH. Will there be any neighboring city close by?
ΚΛ. οὐ πάνυ, διὸ καὶ κατοικίζεται· παλαιὰ γάρ τις ἐξοίκησις ἐν τῷ τόπῳ γενομένη τὴν χώραν ταύτην ἔρημον ἀπείργασται χρόνον ἀμήχανον ὅσον.
CL. Not at all, which is indeed why it is being settled; for a certain ancient depopulation in that place has left this territory desolate for an incredibly long time.
ΑΘ. τί δὲ πεδίων τε καὶ ὀρῶν καὶ ὕλης;
ATH. And what about plains, mountains, and forests?
πῶς μέρος ἑκάστων ἡμῖν εἴληχεν;
How has each of these been allotted to us?
ΚΛ. προσέοικε τῇ τῆς ἄλλης Κρήτης φύσει ὅλῃ.
CL. It resembles the nature of the rest of Crete as a whole.
ΑΘ. τραχυτέραν αὐτὴν ἢ πεδιεινοτέραν ἂν λέγοις.
ATH. Would you say it is rugged rather than level?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL. Absolutely.
§4.705ΑΘ. οὐ τοίνυν ἀνίατός γε ἂν εἴη πρὸς ἀρετῆς κτῆσιν.
ATH. Then it would not be incurable with respect to the acquisition of virtue.
εἰ μὲν γὰρ ἐπιθαλαττία τε ἔμελλεν εἶναι καὶ εὐλίμενος καὶ μὴ πάμφορος ἀλλʼ ἐπιδεὴς πολλῶν, μεγάλου τινὸς ἔδει σωτῆρός τε αὐτῇ καὶ νομοθετῶν θείων τινῶν, εἰ μὴ πολλά τε ἔμελλεν ἤθη καὶ ποικίλα καὶ φαῦλα ἕξειν τοιαύτη φύσει γενομένη·
For if it were going to be situated by the sea, well-harbored, and not all-productive but in need of many things, it would need some great savior and some divine legislators, if it were not going to have many, varied, and base habits, being born of such a nature.
νῦν δὲ παραμύθιον ἔχει τὸ τῶν ὀγδοήκοντα σταδίων.
But as it is, there is comfort in the eighty stades.
ἐγγύτερον μέντοι τοῦ δέοντος κεῖται τῆς θαλάττης, σχεδὸν ὅσον εὐλιμενωτέραν αὐτὴν φῂς εἶναι, ὅμως δὲ ἀγαπητὸν καὶ τοῦτο.
Nevertheless, it lies closer to the sea than it ought to, just about in proportion to how well-harbored you say it is; still, we must be content even with this.
πρόσοικος γὰρ θάλαττα χώρᾳ τὸ μὲν παρʼ ἑκάστην ἡμέραν ἡδύ, μάλα γε μὴν ὄντως ἁλμυρὸν καὶ πικρὸν γειτόνημα· ἐμπορίας γὰρ καὶ χρηματισμοῦ διὰ καπηλείας ἐμπιμπλᾶσα αὐτήν, ἤθη παλίμβολα καὶ ἄπιστα ταῖς ψυχαῖς ἐντίκτουσα, αὐτήν τε πρὸς αὑτὴν τὴν πόλιν ἄπιστον καὶ ἄφιλον ποιεῖ καὶ πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους ἀνθρώπους ὡσαύτως.
For the sea near a country is sweet for daily life, but is indeed a truly salty and bitter neighbor; for filling it with commerce and money-making through retail trade, and breeding changeable and faithless habits in the souls, it makes the state itself faithless and unfriendly to itself, and likewise towards other men.
παραμύθιον δὲ δὴ πρὸς ταῦτα καὶ τὸ πάμφορος εἶναι κέκτηται, τραχεῖα δὲ οὖσα δῆλον ὡς οὐκ ἂν πολύφορός τε εἴη καὶ πάμφορος ἅμα·
But as a comfort against these things, it possesses also the quality of being all-productive; though since it is rugged, it is clear that it could not be both highly productive and all-productive at the same time.
τοῦτο γὰρ ἔχουσα, πολλὴν ἐξαγωγὴν ἂν παρεχομένη, νομίσματος ἀργυροῦ καὶ χρυσοῦ πάλιν ἀντεμπίμπλαιτʼ ἄν, οὗ μεῖζον κακὸν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν πόλει ἀνθʼ ἑνὸς ἓν οὐδὲν ἂν γίγνοιτο εἰς γενναίων καὶ δικαίων ἠθῶν κτῆσιν, ὡς ἔφαμεν, εἰ μεμνήμεθα, ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν λόγοις.
For if it possessed this, and afforded a large export, it would in turn be filled with silver and gold coinage, than which, to speak generally, no greater evil could arise for a city, as a single thing in exchange for a single thing, for the acquisition of noble and just characters, as we said in our former arguments, if we remember them.
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ μεμνήμεθα, καὶ συγχωροῦμεν τότε λέγειν ἡμᾶς ὀρθῶς καὶ τὰ νῦν.
CL. Yes, we remember, and we agree both then and now that we were speaking correctly.
ΑΘ. τί δὲ δή;
ATH. What then?
ναυπηγησίμης ὕλης ὁ τόπος ἡμῖν τῆς χώρας πῶς ἔχει;
How does the territory of our country stand in regard to timber for shipbuilding?
ΚΛ. οὐκ ἔστιν οὔτε τις ἐλάτη λόγου ἀξία οὔτʼ αὖ πεύκη, κυπάριττός τε οὐ πολλή· πίτυν τʼ αὖ καὶ πλάτανον ὀλίγην ἂν εὕροι τις, οἷς δὴ πρὸς τὰ τῶν ἐντὸς τῶν πλοίων μέρη ἀναγκαῖον τοῖς ναυπηγοῖς χρῆσθαι ἑκάστοτε.
CL. There is neither any fir worth mentioning, nor pine, and not much cypress; and of pitch-pine and plane one would find little, which shipbuilders are always obliged to use for the inner parts of vessels.
ΑΘ. καὶ ταῦτα οὐκ ἂν κακῶς ἔχοι τῇ χώρᾳ τῆς φύσεως.
ATH. In this respect too, the nature of the country would not be in a bad state.
ΚΛ. τί δή;
CL. Why so?
ΑΘ. μιμήσεις πονηρὰς μιμεῖσθαι τοὺς πολεμίους μὴ ῥᾳδίως δύνασθαί τινα πόλιν ἀγαθόν.
ATH. That a state should not be able easily to copy the evil imitations of its enemies is a good thing.
ΚΛ. εἰς δὴ τί τῶν εἰρημένων βλέψας εἶπες ὃ λέγεις;
CL. With an eye to which of the things already said did you say what you are saying?
ΑΘ. ὦ δαιμόνιε, φύλαττέ με εἰς τὸ κατʼ ἀρχὰς εἰρημένον ἀποβλέπων, τὸ περὶ τῶν Κρητικῶν νόμων ὡς πρὸς ἕν τι βλέποιεν, καὶ δὴ καὶ τοῦτʼ ἐλεγέτην αὐτὸ εἶναι σφὼ τὸ πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον, ἐγὼ δὲ ὑπολαβὼν εἶπον ὡς ὅτι μὲν εἰς ἀρετήν ποι βλέποι τὰ τοιαῦτα νόμιμα κείμενα, καλῶς ἔχοι, τὸ δὲ ὅτι πρὸς μέρος ἀλλʼ οὐ πρὸς πᾶσαν σχεδόν, οὐ πάνυ συνεχώρουν·
ATH. My good sir, watch me with an eye to what was said at the beginning, concerning the Cretan laws—that they looked to one single thing, which you two said was war itself, while I, in reply, said that if indeed such laws were enacted with an eye to some virtue, it was well, but that they looked only to a part and not to virtually the whole, I did not altogether agree.
νῦν οὖν ὑμεῖς μοι τῆς παρούσης νομοθεσίας ἀντιφυλάξατε ἑπόμενοι, ἐὰν ἄρα τι μὴ πρὸς ἀρετὴν τεῖνον ἢ πρὸς ἀρετῆς μόριον νομοθετῶ.
Now, therefore, you in turn watch me, following along with the present legislation, in case I legislate anything that does not tend towards virtue, or towards only a part of virtue.