§3.701ΑΘ. τοιαῦτα δὴ ποιοῦντες ποιήματα, λόγους τε ἐπιλέγοντες τοιούτους, τοῖς πολλοῖς ἐνέθεσαν παρανομίαν εἰς τὴν μουσικὴν καὶ τόλμαν ὡς ἱκανοῖς οὖσιν κρίνειν· ὅθεν δὴ τὰ θέατρα ἐξ ἀφώνων φωνήεντʼ ἐγένοντο, ὡς ἐπαΐοντα ἐν μούσαις τό τε καλὸν καὶ μή, καὶ ἀντὶ ἀριστοκρατίας ἐν αὐτῇ θεατροκρατία τις πονηρὰ γέγονεν.
ATH. By producing such poems, and appending such arguments, they implanted in the multitude lawlessness regarding music, and the audacity to think they were capable of judging; whence the theatres became vocal instead of silent, as if they understood what is beautiful and what is not in the arts of the Muses, and instead of an aristocracy in music, a certain vicious "theatrocracy" has arisen.
εἰ γὰρ δὴ καὶ δημοκρατία ἐν αὐτῇ τις μόνον ἐγένετο ἐλευθέρων ἀνδρῶν, οὐδὲν ἂν πάνυ γε δεινὸν ἦν τὸ γεγονός· νῦν δὲ ἦρξε μὲν ἡμῖν ἐκ μουσικῆς ἡ πάντων εἰς πάντα σοφίας δόξα καὶ παρανομία, συνεφέσπετο δὲ ἐλευθερία.
For if indeed a certain democracy of free men only had arisen in it, what happened would not have been altogether terrible; but as it is, there began for us from music the opinion that everyone is wise in everything, and lawlessness, and freedom followed in their train.
ἄφοβοι γὰρ ἐγίγνοντο ὡς εἰδότες, ἡ δὲ ἄδεια ἀναισχυντίαν ἐνέτεκεν· τὸ γὰρ τὴν τοῦ βελτίονος δόξαν μὴ φοβεῖσθαι διὰ θράσος, τοῦτʼ αὐτό ἐστιν σχεδὸν ἡ πονηρὰ ἀναισχυντία, διὰ δή τινος ἐλευθερίας λίαν ἀποτετολμημένης.
For they became fearless as though they knew, and this lack of fear begot impudence; for not to fear the opinion of a better person because of audacity, this very thing is, one might say, the evil impudence that is dared through a certain excessive freedom.
ΜΕ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
ME. Most true.
ΑΘ. ἐφεξῆς δὴ ταύτῃ τῇ ἐλευθερίᾳ ἡ τοῦ μὴ ἐθέλειν τοῖς ἄρχουσι δουλεύειν γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, καὶ ἑπομένη ταύτῃ φεύγειν πατρὸς καὶ μητρὸς καὶ πρεσβυτέρων δουλείαν καὶ νουθέτησιν, καὶ ἐγγὺς τοῦ τέλους οὖσιν νόμων ζητεῖν μὴ ὑπηκόοις εἶναι, πρὸς αὐτῷ δὲ ἤδη τῷ τέλει ὅρκων καὶ πίστεων καὶ τὸ παράπαν θεῶν μὴ φροντίζειν, τὴν λεγομένην παλαιὰν Τιτανικὴν φύσιν ἐπιδεικνῦσι καὶ μιμουμένοις, ἐπὶ τὰ αὐτὰ πάλιν ἐκεῖνα ἀφικομένους, χαλεπὸν αἰῶνα διάγοντας μὴ λῆξαί ποτε κακῶν.
ATH. In sequence to this freedom, there would arise the unwillingness to be subject to rulers, and following on this, the escape from subjection to and admonition of father, mother, and elders; and when they are near the end, to seek not to be obedient to the laws; and right at the end, to care nothing for oaths and pledges and the gods altogether, displaying and imitating the so-called ancient Titanic nature, arriving back again at those same conditions and leading a hard life, never to cease from evils.
τίνος δὴ καὶ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν αὖ χάριν ἐλέχθη;
But for the sake of what indeed has this been said to us again?
δεῖν φαίνεται ἔμοιγε οἷόνπερ ἵππον τὸν λόγον ἑκάστοτε ἀναλαμβάνειν, καὶ μὴ καθάπερ ἀχάλινον κεκτημένον τὸ στόμα, βίᾳ ὑπὸ τοῦ λόγου φερόμενον, κατὰ τὴν παροιμίαν ἀπό τινος ὄνου πεσεῖν, ἀλλʼ ἐπανερωτᾶν τὸ νυνδὴ λεχθέν, τὸ τίνος δὴ χάριν ἕνεκα ταῦτα ἐλέχθη;
It seems to me that we must pull up our argument each time like a horse, and not, as if having an unbridled mouth, be carried away by the force of the argument and, according to the proverb, fall off some donkey, but we must ask again what was just said: for the sake of what indeed has this been said?
ΜΕ. καλῶς.
ME. Well said.
ΑΘ. ταῦτα τοίνυν εἴρηται ἐκείνων ἕνεκα.
ATH. These things then have been said for the sake of those.
ΜΕ. τίνων;
ME. Of what things?
ΑΘ. ἐλέξαμεν ὡς τὸν νομοθέτην δεῖ τριῶν στοχαζόμενον νομοθετεῖν, ὅπως ἡ νομοθετουμένη πόλις ἐλευθέρα τε ἔσται καὶ φίλη ἑαυτῇ καὶ νοῦν ἕξει.
ATH. We said that the legislator must legislate with an eye to three things: that the state for which he legislates shall be free, friendly to itself, and possess understanding.
ταῦτʼ ἦν· ἦ γάρ;
That was it, was it not?
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ME. Certainly.
ΑΘ. τούτων ἕνεκα δὴ πολιτείας τήν τε δεσποτικωτάτην προελόμενοι καὶ τὴν ἐλευθερικωτάτην, ἐπισκοποῦμεν νυνὶ ποτέρα τούτων ὀρθῶς πολιτεύεται·
ATH. For the sake of these things, then, having selected the most despotic constitution and the most liberal one, we are now examining which of them is rightly governed.
λαβόντες δὲ αὐτῶν ἑκατέρας μετριότητά τινα, τῶν μὲν τοῦ δεσπόζειν, τῶν δὲ τοῦ ἐλευθεριάσαι, κατείδομεν ὅτι τότε διαφερόντως ἐν αὐταῖς ἐγένετο εὐπραγία, ἐπὶ δὲ τὸ ἄκρον ἀγαγόντων ἑκατέρων, τῶν μὲν δουλείας, τῶν δὲ τοὐναντίου, οὐ συνήνεγκεν οὔτε τοῖς οὔτε τοῖς.
And taking a certain measure of each of them—of ruling in the one case, and of freedom in the other—we perceived that at that time extraordinary prosperity arose in them; but when they carried each to the extreme, the one of slavery, the other of its opposite, it benefited neither the one nor the other.
§3.702ΜΕ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις.
ME. Most true.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν αὐτῶν γʼ ἕνεκα καὶ τὸ Δωρικὸν ἐθεασάμεθα κατοικιζόμενον στρατόπεδον καὶ τὰς τοῦ Δαρδάνου ὑπωρείας τε καὶ τὴν ἐπὶ θαλάττῃ κατοίκισιν, καὶ τοὺς πρώτους δὴ τοὺς περιλιπεῖς γενομένους τῆς φθορᾶς, ἔτι δὲ τοὺς ἔμπροσθεν τούτων γενομένους ἡμῖν λόγους περί τε μουσικῆς καὶ μέθης καὶ τὰ τούτων ἔτι πρότερα.
ATH. And indeed, for their sake also, we examined both the settlement of the Doric camp and the foothills of Dardanus, and the settlement by the sea, and those first survivors of the destruction, as well as the arguments we had before these concerning music and drunkenness, and those even prior to them.
ταῦτα γὰρ πάντα εἴρηται τοῦ κατιδεῖν ἕνεκα πῶς ποτʼ ἂν πόλις ἄριστα οἰκοίη, καὶ ἰδίᾳ πῶς ἄν τις βέλτιστα τὸν αὑτοῦ βίον διαγάγοι·
For all these things have been said for the sake of discerning how a state might best be managed, and individually, how one might best lead his own life.
εἰ δὲ δή τι πεποιήκαμεν προὔργου, τίς ποτʼ ἂν ἔλεγχος γίγνοιτο ἡμῖν πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς λεχθείς, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία;
But if indeed we have accomplished anything useful, what test could ever be applied by us to ourselves, O Megillus and Clinias?
ΚΛ. ἐγώ τινα, ὦ ξένε, μοι δοκῶ κατανοεῖν.
CL. I think, stranger, that I perceive something.
ἔοικεν κατὰ τύχην τινὰ ἡμῖν τὰ τῶν λόγων τούτων πάντων ὧν διεξήλθομεν γεγονέναι· σχεδὸν γὰρ εἰς χρείαν αὐτῶν ἔγωγʼ ἐλήλυθα τὰ νῦν, καὶ κατά τινα αὖ καιρὸν σύ τε παραγέγονας ἅμα καὶ Μέγιλλος ὅδε.
It seems that by some chance the events of all these arguments we have traversed have turned out well for us; for I have come to have a need of them just about now, and by some timely moment you have arrived together with Megillus here.
οὐ γὰρ ἀποκρύψομαι σφὼ τὸ νῦν ἐμοὶ συμβαῖνον, ἀλλὰ καὶ πρὸς οἰωνόν τινα ποιοῦμαι.
For I will not hide from you two what is now happening to me, but I even make it a kind of omen.
ἡ γὰρ πλείστη τῆς Κρήτης ἐπιχειρεῖ τινα ἀποικίαν ποιήσασθαι, καὶ προστάττει τοῖς Κνωσίοις ἐπιμεληθῆναι τοῦ πράγματος, ἡ δὲ τῶν Κνωσίων πόλις ἐμοί τε καὶ ἄλλοις ἐννέα· ἅμα δὲ καὶ νόμους τῶν τε αὐτόθι, εἴ τινες ἡμᾶς ἀρέσκουσιν, τίθεσθαι κελεύει, καὶ εἴ τινες ἑτέρωθεν, μηδὲν ὑπολογιζομένους τὸ ξενικὸν αὐτῶν, ἂν βελτίους φαίνωνται.
For the greater part of Crete is attempting to establish a certain colony, and has ordered the Cnossians to take charge of the matter, and the city of Cnossos has appointed me and nine others; and at the same time it bids us to establish laws, both from those of our own land, if any please us, and if any from elsewhere, taking no account of their foreign origin, if they appear to be better.
νῦν οὖν ἐμοί τε καὶ ὑμῖν ταύτην δῶμεν χάριν· ἐκ τῶν εἰρημένων ἐκλέξαντες, τῷ λόγῳ συστησώμεθα πόλιν, οἷον ἐξ ἀρχῆς κατοικίζοντες, καὶ ἅμα μὲν ἡμῖν οὗ ζητοῦμεν ἐπίσκεψις γενήσεται, ἅμα δὲ ἐγὼ τάχʼ ἂν χρησαίμην εἰς τὴν μέλλουσαν πόλιν ταύτῃ τῇ συστάσει.
Now, therefore, let us grant this favor to myself and you: selecting from what has been said, let us construct a state in our argument, as though we were settling it from the beginning, and at the same time we shall have an examination of what we are seeking, and at the same time I might perhaps make use of this construction for the future state.
ΑΘ. οὐ πόλεμόν γε ἐπαγγέλλεις, ὦ Κλεινία·
ATH.
ἀλλʼ εἰ μή τι Μεγίλλῳ πρόσαντες, τὰ παρʼ ἐμοῦ γε ἡγοῦ σοι πάντα κατὰ νοῦν ὑπάρχειν εἰς δύναμιν.
You are not declaring war, Clinias; but unless there is something offensive to Megillus, consider that everything on my part is at your disposal as far as my power goes.
ΚΛ. εὖ λέγεις.
CL. Well said.
ΜΕ. καὶ μὴν καὶ τὰ παρʼ ἐμοῦ.
ME. And indeed, mine too.
ΚΛ. κάλλιστʼ εἰρήκατον.
CL. You have both spoken most excellently.
ἀτὰρ πειρώμεθα λόγῳ πρῶτον κατοικίζειν τὴν πόλιν.
But let us try to settle the state in argument first.