§3.685ΜΕ. πῶς δὴ καὶ τί μεμφόμενος αὐτῶν λέγεις;
ME. How indeed, and blaming what in them, do you say this?
ΑΘ. ὅτι τριῶν γενομένων τῶν οἰκήσεων τὰ δύο αὐτῶν μέρη ταχὺ τήν τε πολιτείαν καὶ τοὺς νόμους διέφθειρεν, τὸ δὲ ἓν μόνον ἔμεινεν, τὸ τῆς ὑμετέρας πόλεως.
ATH. Because, when three settlements had come into being, two parts of them quickly destroyed both their constitution and their laws, and only the one part remained, that of your city.
ΜΕ. οὐ πάνυ ῥᾴδιον ἐρωτᾷς.
ME. What you ask is not at all easy.
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δεῖ γε ἡμᾶς τοῦτο ἐν τῷ νῦν σκοποῦντας καὶ ἐξετάζοντας, περὶ νόμων παίζοντας παιδιὰν πρεσβυτικὴν σώφρονα, διελθεῖν τὴν ὁδὸν ἀλύπως, ὡς ἔφαμεν ἡνίκα ἠρχόμεθα πορεύεσθαι.
ATH. But surely we must, while contemplating and examining this now, playing a temperate old men's game about laws, go through our path without pain, just as we said when we were beginning to journey.
ΜΕ. τί μήν;
ME.
καὶ ποιητέον γε ὡς λέγεις.
Of course; and indeed it must be done as you say.
ΑΘ. τίνʼ οὖν ἂν σκέψιν καλλίω ποιησαίμεθα περὶ νόμων ἢ τούτων οἳ ταύτας διακεκοσμήκασιν;
ATH. What better investigation about laws, then, could we make than about those laws which have ordered these cities?
ἢ πόλεων περὶ τίνων εὐδοκιμωτέρων τε καὶ μειζόνων κατοικίσεων σκοποίμεθʼ ἄν;
Or about what more famous and larger settlements of cities could we investigate than these?
ΜΕ. οὐ ῥᾴδιον ἀντὶ τούτων ἑτέρας λέγειν.
ME. It is not easy to name others instead of these.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὅτι μὲν διενοοῦντό γε οἱ τότε τὴν κατασκευὴν ταύτην οὐ Πελοποννήσῳ μόνον ἔσεσθαι βοηθὸν ἱκανήν, σχεδὸν δῆλον, ἀλλὰ καὶ τοῖς Ἕλλησιν πᾶσιν, εἴ τις τῶν βαρβάρων αὐτοὺς ἀδικοῖ, καθάπερ οἱ περὶ τὸ Ἴλιον οἰκοῦντες τότε, πιστεύοντες τῇ τῶν Ἀσσυρίων δυνάμει τῇ περὶ Νῖνον γενομένῃ, θρασυνόμενοι τὸν πόλεμον ἤγειραν τὸν ἐπὶ Τροίαν.
ATH. Therefore, it is almost clear that those of that time intended this preparation to be a sufficient help not only for the Peloponnese, but also for all the Greeks, if any of the barbarians should wrong them, just as those who lived around Ilium at that time, trusting in the power of the Assyrians which was centered around Nineveh, grew bold and stirred up the war against Troy.
ἦν γὰρ ἔτι τὸ τῆς ἀρχῆς ἐκείνης σχῆμα τὸ σῳζόμενον οὐ σμικρόν· καθάπερ νῦν τὸν μέγαν βασιλέα φοβούμεθα ἡμεῖς, καὶ τότε ἐκείνην τὴν συσταθεῖσαν σύνταξιν ἐδέδισαν οἱ τότε.
For the form of that empire that was still preserved was not small; just as we now fear the Great King, so those of that time feared that established organization.
μέγα γὰρ ἔγκλημα πρὸς αὐτοὺς ἡ τῆς Τροίας ἅλωσις τὸ δεύτερον ἐγεγόνει· τῆς ἀρχῆς γὰρ τῆς ἐκείνων ἦν μόριον.
For the capture of Troy had become a great cause of complaint against them for the second time, since it was a part of their empire.
πρὸς δὴ ταῦτʼ ἦν πάντα ἡ τοῦ στρατοπέδου τοῦ τότε διανεμηθεῖσα εἰς τρεῖς πόλεις κατασκευὴ μία ὑπὸ βασιλέων ἀδελφῶν, παίδων Ἡρακλέους, καλῶς, ὡς ἐδόκει, ἀνηυρημένη καὶ κατακεκοσμημένη καὶ διαφερόντως τῆς ἐπὶ τὴν Τροίαν ἀφικομένης.
It was, then, against all these things that the preparation of the army of that time, which was distributed into three cities under brother kings, sons of Heracles, was one setup, beautifully, as it seemed, discovered and ordered, and exceptionally superior to the army that went to Troy.
πρῶτον μὲν γὰρ τοὺς Ἡρακλείδας τῶν Πελοπιδῶν ἀμείνους ἡγοῦντο ἀρχόντων ἄρχοντας ἔχειν, ἔπειτʼ αὖ τὸ στρατόπεδον τοῦτο τοῦ ἐπὶ Τροίαν ἀφικομένου διαφέρειν πρὸς ἀρετήν· νενικηκέναι γὰρ τούτους, ἡττᾶσθαι δʼ ὑπὸ τούτων ἐκείνους, Ἀχαιοὺς ὄντας ὑπὸ Δωριῶν.
For first, they considered the Heraclidae to be better than the Pelopidae as rulers over rulers; and second, they thought this army was superior in virtue to that which went to Troy, for these had conquered, while those had been defeated by them, being Achaians defeated by Dorians.
ἆρʼ οὐχ οὕτως οἰόμεθα καί τινι διανοίᾳ ταύτῃ κατασκευάζεσθαι τοὺς τότε;
Do we not think that those of that time established it with some such intention?
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ME. Yes, by all means.
§3.686ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τὸ βεβαίως οἴεσθαι ταῦθʼ ἕξειν εἰκὸς αὐτοὺς καὶ χρόνον τινʼ ἂν πολὺν μένειν, ἅτε κεκοινωνηκότας μὲν πολλῶν πόνων καὶ κινδύνων ἀλλήλοις, ὑπὸ γένους δὲ ἑνὸς τῶν βασιλέων ἀδελφῶν ὄντων διακεκοσμῆσθαι, πρὸς τούτοις δʼ ἔτι καὶ πολλοῖς μάντεσι κεχρημένους εἶναι τοῖς τε ἄλλοις καὶ τῷ Δελφικῷ Ἀπόλλωνι;
ATH. Therefore, is it not also natural that they thought these things would hold securely and remain for a long time, seeing that they had shared many labors and dangers with one another, and had been ordered by one lineage of kings who were brothers, and in addition to these things, they had also made use of many prophets, both others and the Delphic Apollo?
ΜΕ. πῶς δʼ οὐκ εἰκός;
ME. How indeed is it not natural?
ΑΘ. ταῦτα δὴ τὰ μεγάλα οὕτως προσδοκώμενα διέπτατο, ὡς ἔοικε, τότε ταχύ, πλὴν ὅπερ εἴπομεν νυνδὴ σμικροῦ μέρους τοῦ περὶ τὸν ὑμέτερον τόπον, καὶ τοῦτο δὴ πρὸς τὰ δύο μέρη πολεμοῦν οὐ πώποτε πέπαυται μέχρι τὰ νῦν· ἐπεὶ γενομένη γε ἡ τότε διάνοια καὶ συμφωνήσασα εἰς ἕν, ἀνυπόστατον ἄν τινα δύναμιν ἔσχε κατὰ πόλεμον.
ATH. Indeed, these things which were so greatly expected flew away, as it seems, quickly at that time, except for what we have just said, a small part around your region, and even this has never ceased fighting against the other two parts up to the present; since, had the intention of that time been realized and harmonized into one, it would have possessed an irresistible power in war.
ΜΕ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ME. Of course.
ΑΘ. πῶς οὖν καὶ πῇ διώλετο;
ATH. How then and in what way did it perish?
ἆρʼ οὐκ ἄξιον ἐπισκοπεῖν τηλικοῦτον καὶ τοιοῦτον σύστημα ἥτις ποτὲ τύχη διέφθειρε;
Is it not worth investigating what fortune destroyed so great and such a system?
ΜΕ. σχολῇ γὰρ οὖν δή τις ἂν ἄλλο σκοπῶν, ἢ νόμους ἢ πολιτείας ἄλλας θεάσαιτο σῳζούσας καλὰ καὶ μεγάλα πράγματα ἢ καὶ τοὐναντίον διαφθειρούσας τὸ παράπαν, εἰ ἀμελήσειε τούτων.
ME. Certainly; for someone investigating anything else would hardly observe laws or other constitutions preserving beautiful and great deeds, or indeed, on the contrary, destroying them completely, if he should neglect these things.
ΑΘ. τοῦτο μὲν ἄρα, ὡς ἔοικεν, εὐτυχῶς πως ἐμβεβήκαμέν γε εἴς τινα σκέψιν ἱκανήν.
ATH. Therefore, as it seems, we have fortunately entered upon an adequate investigation.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ME. Yes, by all means.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν, ὦ θαυμάσιε, λελήθαμεν ἄνθρωποι πάντες, καὶ τὰ νῦν δὴ ἡμεῖς, οἰόμενοι μὲν ἑκάστοτέ τι καλὸν ὁρᾶν πρᾶγμα γενόμενον καὶ θαυμαστὰ ἂν ἐργασάμενον, εἴ τις ἄρα ἠπιστήθη καλῶς αὐτῷ χρῆσθαι κατά τινα τρόπον, τὸ δὲ νῦν γε ἡμεῖς τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως περὶ τοῦτο αὐτὸ οὔτʼ ὀρθῶς διανοοίμεθα οὔτε κατὰ φύσιν, καὶ δὴ καὶ περὶ τὰ ἄλλα πάντες πάντα, περὶ ὧν ἂν οὕτω διανοηθῶσιν;
ATH. Therefore, my wonderful friend, have we all men, and indeed we ourselves right now, escaped our own notice, in that we think each time we see some beautiful thing happen and that would have achieved wonderful results, if indeed someone had known how to use it beautifully in some way, whereas now we ourselves might perhaps think neither rightly nor according to nature about this very thing, and indeed all men about all things, about which they might think in this way?
ΜΕ. λέγεις δὲ δὴ τί, καὶ περὶ τίνος σοι φῶμεν μάλιστʼ εἰρῆσθαι τοῦτον τὸν λόγον;
ME. What indeed do you mean, and about what shall we say this discourse of yours has been spoken most of all?
ΑΘ. ὠγαθέ, καὶ αὐτὸς ἐμαυτοῦ νυνδὴ κατεγέλασα.
ATH. My good friend, I was just now laughing at myself.
ἀποβλέψας γὰρ πρὸς τοῦτον τὸν στόλον οὗ πέρι διαλεγόμεθα, ἔδοξέ μοι πάγκαλός τε εἶναι καὶ θαυμαστὸν κτῆμα παραπεσεῖν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ὅπερ εἶπον, εἴ τις ἄρα αὐτῷ τότε καλῶς ἐχρήσατο.
For when I looked back at this expedition about which we are speaking, it seemed to me to be altogether beautiful and a wonderful possession to have fallen to the Greeks, as I said, if indeed someone at that time had used it beautifully.
ΜΕ. οὐκοῦν εὖ καὶ ἐχόντως νοῦν σύ τε πάντα εἶπες καὶ ἐπῃνέσαμεν ἡμεῖς;
ME. Did you not, then, say everything well and sensibly, and we praised it?
ΑΘ. ἴσως·
ATH.
ἐννοῶ γε μὴν ὡς πᾶς, ὃς ἂν ἴδῃ τι μέγα καὶ δύναμιν ἔχον πολλὴν καὶ ῥώμην, εὐθὺς ἔπαθε τοῦτο, ὡς εἴπερ ἐπίσταιτο ὁ κεκτημένος αὐτῷ χρῆσθαι τοιούτῳ τε ὄντι καὶ τηλικούτῳ, θαυμάστʼ ἂν καὶ πολλὰ κατεργασάμενος εὐδαιμονοῖ.
Perhaps; yet I reflect that anyone who sees something great and possessing much power and strength immediately experiences this: that if indeed its owner knew how to use it, being of such a quality and so great, he would achieve many wonderful things and be happy.