§3.682ΑΘ. λέγει γὰρ δὴ ταῦτα τὰ ἔπη καὶ ἐκεῖνα, ἃ περὶ τῶν Κυκλώπων εἴρηκεν, κατὰ θεόν πως εἰρημένα καὶ κατὰ φύσιν·
ATH. For indeed he speaks these verses, and those which he spoke about the Cyclopes, as having been spoken in a way according to God and according to nature.
θεῖον γὰρ οὖν δὴ καὶ τὸ ποιητικὸν ἐνθεαστικὸν ὂν γένος ὑμνῳδοῦν, πολλῶν τῶν κατʼ ἀλήθειαν γιγνομένων σύν τισιν Χάρισιν καὶ Μούσαις ἐφάπτεται ἑκάστοτε.
For indeed the poetic race, being divine and inspired, singing hymns, touches upon many of those things that happen in truth, with the aid of some Graces and Muses at each time.
ΚΛ. καὶ μάλα.
CL. Quite so.
ΑΘ. εἰς δὴ τὸ πρόσθεν προέλθωμεν ἔτι τοῦ νῦν ἐπελθόντος ἡμῖν μύθου· τάχα γὰρ ἂν σημήνειέ τι τῆς ἡμετέρας περὶ βουλήσεως.
ATH. Let us then advance further into the story that has just occurred to us; for perhaps it may indicate something concerning our purpose.
οὐκοῦν χρή;
Is it not necessary to do so?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL. By all means.
ΑΘ. κατῳκίσθη δή, φαμέν, ἐκ τῶν ὑψηλῶν εἰς μέγα τε καὶ καλὸν πεδίον Ἴλιον, ἐπὶ λόφον τινὰ οὐχ ὑψηλὸν καὶ ἔχοντα ποταμοὺς πολλοὺς ἄνωθεν ἐκ τῆς Ἴδης ὡρμημένους.
ATH. We say, then, that Ilios was settled from the high places down into a large and beautiful plain, upon a certain hill that was not high and had many rivers rushing down from Ida above.
ΚΛ. φασὶ γοῦν.
CL. They say so, at any rate.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐκ ἐν πολλοῖς τισι χρόνοις τοῖς μετὰ τὸν κατακλυσμὸν τοῦτο οἰόμεθα γεγονέναι;
ATH. Do we not think, then, that this happened in some many times after the flood?
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὐκ ἐν πολλοῖς;
CL. How indeed not in many?
ΑΘ. δεινὴ γοῦν ἔοικεν αὐτοῖς λήθη τότε παρεῖναι τῆς νῦν λεγομένης φθορᾶς, ὅθʼ οὕτως ὑπὸ ποταμοὺς πολλοὺς καὶ ἐκ τῶν ὑψηλῶν ῥέοντας πόλιν ὑπέθεσαν, πιστεύσαντες οὐ σφόδρα ὑψηλοῖς τισιν λόφοις.
ATH. A terrible forgetfulness indeed seems to have been present to them then of the destruction now being spoken of, when they thus placed the foundation of the city under many rivers flowing from the high places, having trusted in certain hills that were not very high.
ΚΛ. δῆλον οὖν ὡς παντάπασί τινα μακρὸν ἀπεῖχον χρόνον τοῦ τοιούτου πάθους.
CL. It is clear, then, that they were at quite a long distance of time from such a disaster.
ΑΘ. καὶ ἄλλαι γε οἶμαι πόλεις τότε κατῴκουν ἤδη πολλαί, πληθυόντων τῶν ἀνθρώπων.
ATH. And I think many other cities also were already being inhabited then, as mankind multiplied.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Of course.
ΑΘ. αἵ γέ που καὶ ἐπεστρατεύσαντο αὐτῇ, καὶ κατὰ θάλατταν δὲ ἴσως, ἀφόβως ἤδη πάντων χρωμένων τῇ θαλάττῃ.
ATH. Which indeed also made war upon her, and probably also by sea, as everyone was already using the sea without fear.
ΚΛ. φαίνεται.
CL. It seems so.
ΑΘ. δέκα δʼ ἔτη που μείναντες Ἀχαιοὶ τὴν Τροίαν ἀνάστατον ἐποίησαν.
ATH. And having stayed for about ten years, the Achaians laid Troy waste.
ΚΛ. καὶ μάλα.
CL. Quite so.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἐν τούτῳ τῷ χρόνῳ, ὄντι δεκέτει, ὃν τὸ Ἴλιον ἐπολιορκεῖτο, τὰ τῶν πολιορκούντων ἑκάστων οἴκοι κακὰ πολλὰ συνέβαινεν γιγνόμενα περὶ τὰς στάσεις τῶν νέων, οἳ καὶ ἀφικομένους τοὺς στρατιώτας εἰς τὰς αὑτῶν πόλεις τε καὶ οἰκίας οὐ καλῶς οὐδʼ ἐν δίκῃ ὑπεδέξαντο, ἀλλʼ ὥστε θανάτους τε καὶ σφαγὰς καὶ φυγὰς γενέσθαι παμπόλλας·
ATH. Therefore during this time, which was of ten years, during which Ilios was being besieged, many evils happened to occur at the homes of each of the besiegers concerning the factions of the young, who received the soldiers returning to their own cities and houses neither well nor justly, but so that very many deaths, slaughters, and exiles occurred.
οἳ πάλιν ἐκπεσόντες κατῆλθον μεταβαλόντες ὄνομα, Δωριῆς ἀντʼ Ἀχαιῶν κληθέντες διὰ τὸ τὸν συλλέξαντα εἶναι τὰς τότε φυγὰς Δωριᾶ.
And those who were cast out came back again, having changed their name, being called Dorians instead of Achaians, because the one who gathered the exiles of that time was Dorieus.
καὶ δὴ ταῦτά γε ἤδη πάνθʼ ὑμεῖς, ὦ Λακεδαιμόνιοι, τἀντεῦθεν μυθολογεῖτέ τε καὶ διαπεραίνετε.
And indeed all these things from that point on you, Lacedaemonians, relate as myth and carry through to the end.
ΜΕ. τί μήν;
ME. Of course.
§3.683ΑΘ. ὅθεν δὴ κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἐξετραπόμεθα περὶ νόμων διαλεγόμενοι, περιπεσόντες μουσικῇ τε καὶ ταῖς μέθαις, νῦν ἐπὶ τὰ αὐτὰ πάλιν ἀφίγμεθα ὥσπερ κατὰ θεόν, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν οἷον λαβὴν ἀποδίδωσιν·
ATH. From where we turned aside at the beginning, when we were discussing laws and fell into music and drunkenness, now we have arrived again at the same point, as if by a god, and the discourse gives us, as it were, a handle.
ἥκει γὰρ ἐπὶ τὴν εἰς Λακεδαίμονα κατοίκισιν αὐτήν, ἣν ὑμεῖς ὀρθῶς ἔφατε κατοικεῖσθαι καὶ Κρήτην ὡς ἀδελφοῖς νόμοις.
For it has come to the settlement itself into Lacedaemon, which you correctly said was settled, as well as Crete, with brotherly laws.
νῦν οὖν δὴ τοσόνδε πλεονεκτοῦμεν τῇ πλάνῃ τοῦ λόγου, διὰ πολιτειῶν τινων καὶ κατοικισμῶν διεξελθόντες· ἐθεασάμεθα πρώτην τε καὶ δευτέραν καὶ τρίτην πόλιν, ἀλλήλων, ὡς οἰόμεθα, ταῖς κατοικίσεσιν ἐχομένας ἐν χρόνου τινὸς μήκεσιν ἀπλέτοις, νῦν δὲ δὴ τετάρτη τις ἡμῖν αὕτη πόλις, εἰ δὲ βούλεσθε, ἔθνος ἥκει κατοικιζόμενόν τέ ποτε καὶ νῦν κατῳκισμένον.
Now therefore we gain this much advantage from the wandering of our discourse, having gone through certain constitutions and settlements; we have beheld a first, a second, and a third city, which, as we think, were connected to one another by their settlements in immense lengths of time, and now indeed this fourth city of ours, or if you wish, nation, has come, once being settled and now established.
ἐξ ὧν ἁπάντων εἴ τι συνεῖναι δυνάμεθα τί τε καλῶς ἢ μὴ κατῳκίσθη, καὶ ποῖοι νόμοι σῴζουσιν αὐτῶν τὰ σῳζόμενα καὶ ποῖοι φθείρουσι τὰ φθειρόμενα, καὶ ἀντὶ ποίων ποῖα μετατεθέντα εὐδαίμονα πόλιν ἀπεργάζοιτʼ ἄν, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία, ταῦτα δὴ πάλιν οἷον ἐξ ἀρχῆς ἡμῖν λεκτέον, εἰ μή τι τοῖς εἰρημένοις ἐγκαλοῦμεν λόγοις.
If from all these things we are able to understand what was settled well or not well, and what laws preserve those of them that are preserved and what destroy those that are destroyed, and what changed in place of what would make a happy city, Megillus and Cleinias, these things must be spoken of by us again, as if from the beginning, unless we find some fault with the spoken discourses.
ΜΕ. εἰ γοῦν, ὦ ξένε, τις ἡμῖν ὑπόσχοιτο θεὸς ὡς, ἐὰν ἐπιχειρήσωμεν τὸ δεύτερον τῇ τῆς νομοθεσίας σκέψει, τῶν νῦν εἰρημένων λόγων οὐ χείρους οὐδʼ ἐλάττους ἀκουσόμεθα, μακρὰν ἂν ἔλθοιμι ἔγωγε, καί μοι βραχεῖʼ ἂν δόξειεν ἡ νῦν παροῦσα ἡμέρα γίγνεσθαι. καίτοι σχεδόν γʼ ἐστὶν ἡ ἐκ θερινῶν εἰς τὰ χειμερινὰ τοῦ θεοῦ τρεπομένου.
ME. If indeed, stranger, some god should promise us that, if we attempt for the second time the inquiry into legislation, we shall hear discourses no worse and no fewer than those now spoken, I for one would go a long way, and the present day would seem to me to become short; and yet it is almost the time when the god turns from summer to winter.
ΑΘ. χρὴ δὴ ταῦτα, ὡς ἔοικεν, σκοπεῖν.
ATH. It is necessary indeed, it seems, to consider these things.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ME. By all means.
ΑΘ. γενώμεθα δὴ ταῖς διανοίαις ἐν τῷ τότε χρόνῳ, ὅτε Λακεδαίμων μὲν καὶ Ἄργος καὶ Μεσσήνη καὶ τὰ μετὰ τούτων ὑποχείρια τοῖς προγόνοις ὑμῶν, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ἱκανῶς ἐγεγόνει·
ATH. Let us then transport ourselves in our minds to that time when Lacedaemon and Argos and Messene and the regions after these had become sufficiently subject to your ancestors, Megillus.
τὸ δὲ δὴ μετὰ τοῦτο ἔδοξεν αὐτοῖς, ὥς γε λέγεται τὸ τοῦ μύθου, τριχῇ τὸ στράτευμα διανείμαντας, τρεῖς πόλεις κατοικίζειν, Ἄργος, Μεσσήνην, Λακεδαίμονα.
And after this indeed, it seemed good to them, as the myth is told, having divided the army into three parts, to settle three cities: Argos, Messene, and Lacedaemon.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
ME. By all means.
ΑΘ. καὶ βασιλεὺς μὲν Ἄργους Τήμενος ἐγίγνετο, Μεσσήνης δὲ Κρεσφόντης, Λακεδαίμονος δὲ Προκλῆς καὶ Εὐρυσθένης.
ATH. And Temenus became king of Argos, Cresphontes of Messene, and Procles and Eurysthenes of Lacedaemon.
ΜΕ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
ME. How indeed not?
ΑΘ. καὶ πάντες δὴ τούτοις ὤμοσαν οἱ τότε βοηθήσειν, ἐάν τις τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν διαφθείρῃ.
ATH. And indeed all of those at that time swore to help them if anyone should destroy their kingship.
ΜΕ. τί μήν;
ME. Of course.
ΑΘ. βασιλεία δὲ καταλύεται, ὦ πρὸς Διός, ἢ καί τις ἀρχὴ πώποτε κατελύθη, μῶν ὑπό τινων ἄλλων ἢ σφῶν αὐτῶν;
ATH. But is a kingship dissolved, by Zeus, or indeed has any rule ever been dissolved, by any others than themselves?
ἢ νυνδὴ μέν, ὀλίγον ἔμπροσθεν τούτοις περιτυχόντες τοῖς λόγοις, οὕτω ταῦτʼ ἐτίθεμεν, νῦν δʼ ἐπιλελήσμεθα;
Or did we, just now, having met with these discourses a little while before, establish these things in this way, but now we have forgotten?
ΜΕ. καὶ πῶς;
ME. How indeed could we?