§3.680ΑΘ. λελέχθω δὴ ταῦτα ἡμῖν καὶ τὰ τούτοις συνεπόμενα ἔτι πάντα εἰρήσθω τοῦδʼ ἕνεκα, ἵνα νοήσωμεν τοῖς τότε νόμων τίς ποτʼ ἦν χρεία καὶ τίς ἦν νομοθέτης αὐτοῖς.
ATH. Let these things then be said by us, and let all that follows from them further be spoken for this purpose: that we may understand what need of laws those of that time had, and who was their lawgiver.
ΚΛ. καὶ καλῶς γε εἴρηκας.
CL. Indeed, you have spoken well.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἐκεῖνοι μὲν οὔτʼ ἐδέοντο νομοθετῶν οὔτε πω ἐφίλει κατὰ τούτους τοὺς χρόνους γίγνεσθαι τὸ τοιοῦτον;
ATH. Did those men, then, not need lawgivers, nor was such a thing yet accustomed to happen in those times?
οὐδὲ γὰρ γράμματα ἔστι πω τοῖς ἐν τούτῳ τῷ μέρει τῆς περιόδου γεγονόσιν, ἀλλʼ ἔθεσι καὶ τοῖς λεγομένοις πατρίοις νόμοις ἑπόμενοι ζῶσιν.
For not even letters yet exist for those who lived in this part of the cycle, but they live following customs and what are called ancestral laws.
ΚΛ. εἰκὸς γοῦν.
CL. That is indeed likely.
ΑΘ. πολιτείας δέ γε ἤδη καὶ τρόπος ἐστίν τις οὗτος.
ATH. And yet this is already a certain kind of constitution.
ΚΛ. τίς;
CL. Which kind?
ΑΘ. δοκοῦσί μοι πάντες τὴν ἐν τούτῳ τῷ χρόνῳ πολιτείαν δυναστείαν καλεῖν, ἣ καὶ νῦν ἔτι πολλαχοῦ καὶ ἐν Ἕλλησι καὶ κατὰ βαρβάρους ἐστίν·
ATH. It seems to me that everyone calls the constitution of that time "lordship" (dynasty), which even now still exists in many places both among Greeks and barbarians; and Homer too somewhere says that this existed in connection with the dwelling of the Cyclopes, saying: "To them there are neither councils that give advice nor laws, but they dwell on the peaks of high mountains in hollow caves, and each one lays down the law for his children and wives, and they care nothing for one another.
λέγει δʼ αὐτήν που καὶ Ὅμηρος γεγονέναι περὶ τὴν τῶν Κυκλώπων οἴκησιν, εἰπὼν—
"
τοῖσιν δʼ οὔτʼ ἀγοραὶ βουληφόροι οὔτε θέμιστες,
ἀλλʼ οἵ γʼ ὑψηλῶν ὀρέων ναίουσι κάρηνα
ἐν σπέσσι γλαφυροῖσι, θεμιστεύει δὲ ἕκαστος
"
"
παίδων ἠδʼ ἀλόχων, οὐδʼ ἀλλήλων ἀλέγουσιν.
"CL.
"
ΚΛ. ἔοικέν γε ὁ ποιητὴς ὑμῖν οὗτος γεγονέναι χαρίεις.
This poet of yours seems to have been quite charming.
καὶ γὰρ δὴ καὶ ἄλλα αὐτοῦ διεληλύθαμεν μάλʼ ἀστεῖα, οὐ μὴν πολλά γε· οὐ γὰρ σφόδρα χρώμεθα οἱ Κρῆτες τοῖς ξενικοῖς ποιήμασιν.
For indeed we have read other very witty passages of his, though not many; for we Cretans do not make much use of foreign poetry.
ΜΕ. ἡμεῖς δʼ αὖ χρώμεθα μέν, καὶ ἔοικέν γε κρατεῖν τῶν τοιούτων ποιητῶν, οὐ μέντοι Λακωνικόν γε ἀλλά τινα μᾶλλον Ἰωνικὸν βίον διεξέρχεται ἑκάστοτε.
ME. We, on the other hand, do use him, and he seems to surpass such poets, though indeed he always describes not a Laconic but rather a somewhat Ionian way of life.
νῦν μὴν εὖ τῷ σῷ λόγῳ ἔοικε μαρτυρεῖν, τὸ ἀρχαῖον αὐτῶν ἐπὶ τὴν ἀγριότητα διὰ μυθολογίας ἐπανενεγκών.
Now, however, he seems to bear good witness to your discourse, tracing their ancient state back to savagery through mythology.
ΑΘ. ναί·
ATH.
συμμαρτυρεῖ γάρ, καὶ λάβωμέν γε αὐτὸν μηνυτὴν ὅτι τοιαῦται πολιτεῖαι γίγνονταί ποτε.
Yes, for he does bear witness, and let us take him as our informant that such constitutions do sometimes arise.
ΚΛ. καλῶς.
CL. Very well.
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οὐκ ἐκ τούτων τῶν κατὰ μίαν οἴκησιν καὶ κατὰ γένος διεσπαρμένων ὑπὸ ἀπορίας τῆς ἐν ταῖς φθοραῖς, ἐν αἷς τὸ πρεσβύτατον ἄρχει διὰ τὸ τὴν ἀρχὴν αὐτοῖς ἐκ πατρὸς καὶ μητρὸς γεγονέναι, οἷς ἑπόμενοι καθάπερ ὄρνιθες ἀγέλην μίαν ποιήσουσι, πατρονομούμενοι καὶ βασιλείαν πασῶν δικαιοτάτην βασιλευόμενοι;
ATH. Did they not, then, arise from those who were scattered in single dwellings and families by the difficulty during the destructions, in which the eldest rules because the authority has come to them from father and mother, whom following like birds they will make a single flock, being ruled by paternal laws and living under a kingship which is the most just of all?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL. Quite so indeed.
§3.681ΑΘ. μετὰ δὲ ταῦτά γε εἰς τὸ κοινὸν μείζους ποιοῦντες πόλεις πλείους συνέρχονται, καὶ ἐπὶ γεωργίας τὰς ἐν ταῖς ὑπωρείαις τρέπονται πρώτας, περιβόλους τε αἱμασιώδεις τινὰς τειχῶν ἐρύματα τῶν θηρίων ἕνεκα ποιοῦνται, μίαν οἰκίαν αὖ κοινὴν καὶ μεγάλην ἀποτελοῦντες.
ATH. And after this, coming together in common to make larger cities, they turn first to agriculture at the foothills of the mountains, and they build certain stone walls as defenses against wild beasts, creating again one common and large dwelling.
ΚΛ. τὸ γοῦν εἰκὸς ταῦθʼ οὕτως γίγνεσθαι.
CL. It is indeed likely that these things happened in this way.
ΑΘ. τί δέ;
ATH. What then?
τόδε ἆρα οὐκ εἰκός;
Is this not also likely?
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
CL. What sort of thing?
ΑΘ. τῶν οἰκήσεων τούτων μειζόνων αὐξανομένων ἐκ τῶν ἐλαττόνων καὶ πρώτων, ἑκάστην τῶν σμικρῶν παρεῖναι κατὰ γένος ἔχουσαν τόν τε πρεσβύτατον ἄρχοντα καὶ αὑτῆς ἔθη ἄττα ἴδια διὰ τὸ χωρὶς ἀλλήλων οἰκεῖν, ἕτερα ἀφʼ ἑτέρων ὄντων τῶν γεννητόρων τε καὶ θρεψάντων, ἃ εἰθίσθησαν περὶ θεούς τε καὶ ἑαυτούς, κοσμιωτέρων μὲν κοσμιώτερα καὶ ἀνδρικῶν ἀνδρικώτερα, καὶ κατὰ τρόπον οὕτως ἑκάστους τὰς αὑτῶν ἂν αἱρέσεις εἰς τοὺς παῖδας ἀποτυπουμένους καὶ παίδων παῖδας, ὃ λέγομεν, ἥκειν ἔχοντας ἰδίους νόμους εἰς τὴν μείζονα συνοικίαν.
ATH. That as these larger dwellings grow out of the smaller and primary ones, each of the small ones is present according to family, having its eldest ruler and certain of its own peculiar customs because of their dwelling apart from one another—having had different parents and nurturers—which they became accustomed to concerning the gods and themselves; those of the more orderly parents being more orderly, and those of the more courageous being more courageous, and each thus stamping their own preferences upon their children and children's children, they come, as we say, having their own peculiar laws into the larger community.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL. How could they not?
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν τούς γε αὑτῶν νόμους ἀρέσκειν ἑκάστοις ἀναγκαῖόν που, τοὺς δὲ τῶν ἄλλων ὑστέρους.
ATH. And indeed it is necessary, I suppose, that each group is pleased with their own laws, and puts those of others second.
ΚΛ. οὕτως.
CL. That is so.
ΑΘ. ἀρχῇ δὴ νομοθεσίας οἷον ἐμβάντες ἐλάθομεν, ὡς ἔοικεν.
ATH. We seem to have stepped, as it were, into the beginning of legislation without noticing.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL. Quite so indeed.
ΑΘ. τὸ γοῦν μετὰ ταῦτα ἀναγκαῖον αἱρεῖσθαι τοὺς συνελθόντας τούτους κοινούς τινας ἑαυτῶν, οἳ δὴ τὰ πάντων ἰδόντες νόμιμα, τά σφισιν ἀρέσκοντα αὐτῶν μάλιστα εἰς τὸ κοινὸν τοῖς ἡγεμόσι καὶ ἀγαγοῦσι τοὺς δήμους οἷον βασιλεῦσι φανερὰ δείξαντες ἑλέσθαι τε δόντες, αὐτοὶ μὲν νομοθέται κληθήσονται, τοὺς δὲ ἄρχοντας καταστήσαντες, ἀριστοκρατίαν τινὰ ἐκ τῶν δυναστειῶν ποιήσαντες ἢ καί τινα βασιλείαν, ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ μεταβολῇ τῆς πολιτείας οἰκήσουσιν.
ATH. Therefore, after this, it is necessary for those who have come together to choose some common representatives of themselves, who, having seen the customs of all, and showing clearly those that please them most to the leaders and those who guide the peoples as if they were kings, and giving them the choice, will themselves be called "lawgivers"; and having established the rulers, and having made a certain aristocracy or even a kingship out of the dynasties, they will dwell in this transition of the constitution.
ΚΛ. ἐφεξῆς γοῦν ἂν οὕτω τε καὶ ταύτῃ γίγνοιτο.
CL. In order, then, it would happen in this way and by this path.
ΑΘ. τρίτον τοίνυν εἴπωμεν ἔτι πολιτείας σχῆμα γιγνόμενον, ἐν ᾧ δὴ πάντα εἴδη καὶ παθήματα πολιτειῶν καὶ ἅμα πόλεων συμπίπτει γίγνεσθαι.
ATH. Let us then speak of a third form of constitution that arises, in which indeed all kinds and passive states of constitutions and at the same time of cities happen to coincide.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δὴ τοῦτο;
CL. What kind of thing is this?
ΑΘ. ὃ μετὰ τὸ δεύτερον καὶ Ὅμηρος ἐπεσημήνατο, λέγων τὸ τρίτον οὕτω γεγονέναι.
ATH.
"
κτίσσε δὲ Δαρδανίην
"
γάρ πού φησιν,
"
ἐπεὶ οὔπω Ἴλιος ἱρὴ
ἐν πεδίῳ πεπόλιστο, πόλις μερόπων ἀνθρώπων,
ἀλλʼ ἔθʼ ὑπωρείας ᾤκουν πολυπιδάκου Ἴδης. "
That which after the second one Homer also pointed out, saying that the third arose in this way: "And he founded Dardania, "for he says somewhere, "since sacred Ilios was not yet built in the plain, a city of mortal men, but they still dwelt on the foothills of many-fountained Ida. "