§3.678ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν οὕτω δὴ λέγωμεν ἔχειν τότε, ὅτʼ ἐγένετο ἡ φθορά, τὰ περὶ τοὺς ἀνθρώπους πράγματα, μυρίαν μέν τινα φοβερὰν ἐρημίαν, γῆς δʼ ἀφθόνου πλῆθος πάμπολυ, ζῴων δὲ τῶν ἄλλων ἐρρόντων, βουκόλιʼ ἄττα, καὶ εἴ τί που αἰγῶν περιλειφθὲν ἐτύγχανεν γένος, σπάνια καὶ ταῦτα νέμουσιν εἶναι ζῆν τότε κατʼ ἀρχάς;
ATH. Shall we not say, then, that the state of human affairs was like this at that time, when the destruction occurred: a certain vast and fearsome desolation, but a very great abundance of land, and while the other animals had perished, some herds of cattle and whatever race of goats happened to survive, and these being scarce for those who pastured them, to be their means of life at that time in the beginning?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Surely.
ΑΘ. πόλεως δὲ καὶ πολιτείας πέρι καὶ νομοθεσίας, ὧν νῦν ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν παρέστηκεν, ἆρʼ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν οἰόμεθα καὶ μνήμην εἶναι τὸ παράπαν;
ATH. But as for city, constitution, and legislation—concerning which our discourse has now arisen—do we suppose that there was, so to speak, any memory of them at all?
ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς.
CL. By no means.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἐξ ἐκείνων τῶν διακειμένων οὕτω τὰ νῦν γέγονεν ἡμῖν σύμπαντα, πόλεις τε καὶ πολιτεῖαι καὶ τέχναι καὶ νόμοι, καὶ πολλὴ μὲν πονηρία, πολλὴ δὲ καὶ ἀρετή;
ATH. Is it not, then, from those things in such a state that all our present affairs have arisen—cities, constitutions, arts, and laws, and much vice indeed, but also much virtue?
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CL. How do you mean?
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οἰόμεθα, ὦ θαυμάσιε, τοὺς τότε, ἀπείρους ὄντας πολλῶν μὲν καλῶν τῶν κατὰ τὰ ἄστη, πολλῶν δὲ καὶ τῶν ἐναντίων, τελέους πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἢ πρὸς κακίαν γεγονέναι;
ATH. Do we suppose, O wonderful man, that those of that time, being inexperienced in many noble things of the cities, and also in many of their opposites, had become perfect either in virtue or in vice?
ΚΛ. καλῶς εἶπες, καὶ μανθάνομεν ὃ λέγεις.
CL. You speak well, and we understand what you mean.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν προϊόντος μὲν τοῦ χρόνου, πληθύοντος δʼ ἡμῶν τοῦ γένους, εἰς πάντα τὰ νῦν καθεστηκότα προελήλυθεν πάντα;
ATH. Then, as time went on and our race multiplied, all things advanced to their present established state?
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα.
CL. Most correctly.
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἐξαίφνης γε, ὡς εἰκός, κατὰ σμικρὸν δὲ ἐν παμπόλλῳ τινὶ χρόνῳ.
ATH. Not suddenly, as is likely, but by small degrees over a very great deal of time.
ΚΛ. καὶ μάλα πρέπει τοῦθʼ οὕτως.
CL. And indeed this is very fitting.
ΑΘ. ἐκ γὰρ τῶν ὑψηλῶν εἰς τὰ πεδία καταβαίνειν, οἶμαι, πᾶσιν φόβος ἔναυλος ἐγεγόνει.
ATH. For I suppose that a lingering fear of descending from the heights into the plains had arisen in all of them.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
CL. How could it not?
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὐχ ἅσμενοι μὲν ἑαυτοὺς ἑώρων διʼ ὀλιγότητα ἐν τοῖς περὶ ἐκεῖνον τὸν χρόνον, πορεῖα δέ, ὥστʼ ἐπʼ ἀλλήλους τότε πορεύεσθαι κατὰ γῆν ἢ κατὰ θάλατταν, σὺν ταῖς τέχναις ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν πάντα σχεδὸν ἀπωλώλει;
ATH. Did they not see one another gladly because of their fewness in the times about that period? Yet as for means of transport, so as to travel to one another at that time by land or by sea, had they not almost all perished, so to speak, along with the arts?
συμμίσγειν οὖν ἀλλήλοις οὐκ ἦν οἶμαι σφόδρα δυνατόν· σίδηρος γὰρ καὶ χαλκὸς καὶ πάντα τὰ μεταλλεῖα συγκεχυμένα ἠφάνιστο, ὥστε ἀπορία πᾶσα ἦν τοῦ ἀνακαθαίρεσθαι τὰ τοιαῦτα, δρυοτομίας τε εἶχον σπάνιν.
Therefore, to mingle with one another was not, I think, very possible; for iron and bronze and all the mines, having been collapsed, had disappeared, so that there was every difficulty in refining such metals, and they had a scarcity of timber.
εἰ γάρ πού τι καὶ περιγεγονὸς ἦν ὄργανον ἐν ὄρεσι, ταῦτα μὲν ταχὺ κατατριβέντα ἠφάνιστο, ἄλλα δὲ οὐκ ἔμελλεν γενήσεσθαι, πρὶν πάλιν ἡ τῶν μεταλλέων ἀφίκοιτο εἰς ἀνθρώπους τέχνη.
For even if some tool had survived somewhere in the mountains, these, being quickly worn away, disappeared, and other tools were not going to be made until the art of the miners should once more return to men.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ ἄν;
CL. Indeed, how could they?
ΑΘ. γενεαῖς δὴ πόσαις ὕστερον οἰόμεθα τοῦθʼ οὕτως γεγονέναι;
ATH. Then in how many generations later do we suppose this happened in this way?
ΚΛ. δῆλον ὅτι παμπόλλαις τισίν.
CL. Plainly in very many.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ τέχναι, ὅσαιπερ σιδήρου δέονται καὶ χαλκοῦ καὶ τῶν τοιούτων ἁπάντων, τὸν αὐτὸν χρόνον καὶ ἔτι πλείονα ἠφανισμέναι ἂν εἶεν ἐν τῷ τότε;
ATH. Would not, then, the arts as well, which require iron and bronze and all such things, have disappeared during that same time and even longer in the world of that day?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Surely.
ΑΘ. καὶ τοίνυν στάσις ἅμα καὶ πόλεμος ἀπωλώλει κατὰ τὸν τότε χρόνον πολλαχῇ.
ATH. And furthermore, strife and war as well had disappeared in many ways during that time.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CL. How?
§3.679ΑΘ. πρῶτον μὲν ἠγάπων καὶ ἐφιλοφρονοῦντο ἀλλήλους διʼ ἐρημίαν, ἔπειτα οὐ περιμάχητος ἦν αὐτοῖς ἡ τροφή.
ATH. First, they loved and felt goodwill toward one another because of their isolation; second, food was not a matter of contention for them.
νομῆς γὰρ οὐκ ἦν σπάνις, εἰ μή τισιν κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἴσως, ᾗ δὴ τὸ πλεῖστον διέζων ἐν τῷ τότε χρόνῳ·
For there was no scarcity of pasture, except perhaps for some at the very beginning, on which indeed the greater part lived in those days.
γάλακτος γὰρ καὶ κρεῶν οὐδαμῶς ἐνδεεῖς ἦσαν, ἔτι δὲ θηρεύοντες οὐ φαύλην οὐδʼ ὀλίγην τροφὴν παρείχοντο.
For they were in no way lacking in milk and meat, and furthermore, by hunting, they provided no mean or small amount of food.
καὶ μὴν ἀμπεχόνης γε καὶ στρωμνῆς καὶ οἰκήσεων καὶ σκευῶν ἐμπύρων τε καὶ ἀπύρων ηὐπόρουν· αἱ πλαστικαὶ γὰρ καὶ ὅσαι πλεκτικαὶ τῶν τεχνῶν οὐδὲ ἓν προσδέονται σιδήρου, ταῦτα δὲ πάντα τούτω τὼ τέχνα θεὸς ἔδωκε πορίζειν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ἵνʼ ὁπότε εἰς τὴν τοιαύτην ἀπορίαν ἔλθοιεν, ἔχοι βλάστην καὶ ἐπίδοσιν τὸ τῶν ἀνθρώπων γένος.
And indeed, they had plenty of clothing, bedding, dwellings, and vessels both heated by fire and unheated; for the arts of pottery and weaving do not require iron at all, and God gave these two arts to men to provide all these things, so that whenever they should come into such difficulty, the human race might have a way to grow and progress.
πένητες μὲν δὴ διὰ τὸ τοιοῦτον σφόδρα οὐκ ἦσαν, οὐδʼ ὑπὸ πενίας ἀναγκαζόμενοι διάφοροι ἑαυτοῖς ἐγίγνοντο· πλούσιοι δʼ οὐκ ἄν ποτε ἐγένοντο ἄχρυσοί τε καὶ ἀνάργυροι ὄντες, ὃ τότε ἐν ἐκείνοις παρῆν.
Therefore, because of this, they were not extremely poor, nor were they driven by poverty into strife with one another; on the other hand, they could never have become rich, being without gold and silver, which at that time was not present among them.
ᾗ δʼ ἄν ποτε συνοικίᾳ μήτε πλοῦτος συνοικῇ μήτε πενία, σχεδὸν ἐν ταύτῃ γενναιότατα ἤθη γίγνοιτʼ ἄν· οὔτε γὰρ ὕβρις οὔτʼ ἀδικία, ζῆλοί τε αὖ καὶ φθόνοι οὐκ ἐγγίγνονται.
And in whatever community neither wealth nor poverty dwells, in this one almost always the noblest characters would arise; for neither insolence nor injustice, nor again rivalries and envies arise in it.
ἀγαθοὶ μὲν δὴ διὰ ταῦτά τε ἦσαν καὶ διὰ τὴν λεγομένην εὐήθειαν· ἃ γὰρ ἤκουον καλὰ καὶ αἰσχρά, εὐήθεις ὄντες ἡγοῦντο ἀληθέστατα λέγεσθαι καὶ ἐπείθοντο.
For these reasons, then, and because of their so-called simplicity, they were good; for what they heard to be noble or base, they in their simplicity believed to be spoken most truly and obeyed.
ψεῦδος γὰρ ὑπονοεῖν οὐδεὶς ἠπίστατο διὰ σοφίαν, ὥσπερ τὰ νῦν, ἀλλὰ περὶ θεῶν τε καὶ ἀνθρώπων τὰ λεγόμενα ἀληθῆ νομίζοντες ἔζων κατὰ ταῦτα· διόπερ ἦσαν τοιοῦτοι παντάπασιν οἵους αὐτοὺς ἡμεῖς ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν.
For no one knew how to suspect a lie because of wisdom, as they do now, but believing the things said about gods and men to be true, they lived according to them; therefore, they were altogether such as we have just now described them.
ΚΛ. ἐμοὶ γοῦν δὴ καὶ τῷδε οὕτως ταῦτα συνδοκεῖ.
CL. At least to me and to my friend here, these things seem so.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν εἴπωμεν ὅτι γενεαὶ διαβιοῦσαι πολλαὶ τοῦτον τὸν τρόπον τῶν πρὸ κατακλυσμοῦ γεγονότων καὶ τῶν νῦν ἀτεχνότεροι μὲν καὶ ἀμαθέστεροι πρός τε τὰς ἄλλας μέλλουσιν εἶναι τέχνας καὶ πρὸς τὰς πολεμικάς, ὅσαι τε πεζαὶ καὶ ὅσαι κατὰ θάλατταν γίγνονται τὰ νῦν, καὶ ὅσαι δὴ κατὰ πόλιν μόνον αὐτοῦ, δίκαι καὶ στάσεις λεγόμεναι, λόγοις ἔργοις τε μεμηχανημέναι πάσας μηχανὰς εἰς τὸ κακουργεῖν τε ἀλλήλους καὶ ἀδικεῖν, εὐηθέστεροι δὲ καὶ ἀνδρειότεροι καὶ ἅμα σωφρονέστεροι καὶ σύμπαντα δικαιότεροι;
ATH. Shall we not say, then, that many generations living in this manner were bound to be more unskilled and ignorant than those before the flood and those of today, both in respect to other arts and in respect to military arts—such as are now carried on by land and by sea, and indeed those which belong only to the city itself, called lawsuits and strifes, which are engineered by words and deeds with every device to harm and wrong one another—but simpler, more courageous, and at the same time more temperate and in every way more just?
τὸ δὲ τούτων αἴτιον ἤδη διεληλύθαμεν.
And the cause of these things we have already explained.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς λέγεις.
CL. You speak correctly.