§3.676ΑΘ. ταῦτα μὲν οὖν δὴ ταύτῃ·
ATH. So much, then, for these things.
πολιτείας δὲ ἀρχὴν τίνα ποτὲ φῶμεν γεγονέναι;
But what indeed shall we say was the origin of a constitution?
μῶν οὐκ ἐνθένδε τις ἂν αὐτὴν ῥᾷστά τε καὶ κάλλιστα κατίδοι;
Is it not from this point that one would most easily and beautifully observe it?
ΚΛ. πόθεν;
CL. From where?
ΑΘ. ὅθενπερ καὶ τὴν τῶν πόλεων ἐπίδοσιν εἰς ἀρετὴν μεταβαίνουσαν ἅμα καὶ κακίαν ἑκάστοτε θεατέον.
ATH. From the very point from which one must also observe on each occasion the progress of cities as it changes towards virtue and at the same time towards vice.
ΚΛ. λέγεις δὲ πόθεν;
CL. And from where do you mean?
ΑΘ. οἶμαι μὲν ἀπὸ χρόνου μήκους τε καὶ ἀπειρίας καὶ τῶν μεταβολῶν ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ.
ATH. I think, indeed, from the length of time, and the infinity, and the changes in such a course.
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CL. How do you mean?
ΑΘ. φέρε, ἀφʼ οὗ πόλεις τʼ εἰσὶν καὶ ἄνθρωποι πολιτευόμενοι, δοκεῖς ἄν ποτε κατανοῆσαι χρόνου πλῆθος ὅσον γέγονεν;
ATH. Come, since there have been cities and men living as citizens, do you think you could ever conceive how great the amount of time has been?
ΚΛ. οὔκουν ῥᾴδιόν γε οὐδαμῶς.
CL. Not easily, by any means.
ΑΘ. τὸ δέ γε ὡς ἄπλετόν τι καὶ ἀμήχανον ἂν εἴη;
ATH. But that indeed it would be something immense and inconceivable?
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν τοῦτό γε.
CL. Entirely so, at least this.
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οὐ μυρίαι μὲν ἐπὶ μυρίαις ἡμῖν γεγόνασι πόλεις ἐν τούτῳ τῷ χρόνῳ, κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν δὲ τοῦ πλήθους λόγον οὐκ ἐλάττους ἐφθαρμέναι;
ATH. Has it not been, then, that thousands upon thousands of cities have come into being for us in this time, and according to the same ratio of number, no fewer have been destroyed?
πεπολιτευμέναι δʼ αὖ πάσας πολιτείας πολλάκις ἑκασταχοῦ;
And indeed, have they not lived under all kinds of constitutions many times everywhere?
καὶ τοτὲ μὲν ἐξ ἐλαττόνων μείζους, τοτὲ δʼ ἐκ μειζόνων ἐλάττους, καὶ χείρους ἐκ βελτιόνων γεγόνασι καὶ βελτίους ἐκ χειρόνων;
And at one time have they not become greater from smaller, and at another time smaller from greater, and worse from better, and better from worse?
ΚΛ. ἀναγκαῖον.
CL. Necessarily.
ΑΘ. ταύτης δὴ πέρι λάβωμεν, εἰ δυναίμεθα, τῆς μεταβολῆς τὴν αἰτίαν· τάχα γὰρ ἂν ἴσως δείξειεν ἡμῖν τὴν πρώτην τῶν πολιτειῶν γένεσιν καὶ μετάβασιν.
ATH. Let us grasp, then, if we can, the cause of this change; for perhaps it might show us the first origin of constitutions and their transition.
ΚΛ. εὖ λέγεις, καὶ προθυμεῖσθαι δεῖ, σὲ μὲν ὃ διανοῇ περὶ αὐτῶν ἀποφαινόμενον, ἡμᾶς δὲ συνεπομένους.
CL. You speak well, and we must be eager, you declaring what you think about them, and we following along.
§3.677ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ὑμῖν οἱ παλαιοὶ λόγοι ἀλήθειαν ἔχειν τινὰ δοκοῦσιν;
ATH. Do the ancient accounts, then, seem to you to possess some truth?
ΚΛ. ποῖοι δή;
CL. Which ones indeed?
ΑΘ. τὸ πολλὰς ἀνθρώπων φθορὰς γεγονέναι κατακλυσμοῖς τε καὶ νόσοις καὶ ἄλλοις πολλοῖς, ἐν οἷς βραχύ τι τῶν ἀνθρώπων λείπεσθαι γένος.
ATH. That many destructions of mankind have occurred by floods and diseases and many other things, in which a certain small part of the human race was left.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν πιθανὸν τὸ τοιοῦτον πᾶν παντί.
CL. Indeed, everything of this sort is entirely credible to anyone.
ΑΘ. φέρε δή, νοήσωμεν μίαν τῶν πολλῶν ταύτην τὴν τῷ κατακλυσμῷ ποτε γενομένην.
ATH. Come then, let us conceive of one of those many destructions, this one which once occurred by the flood.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖόν τι περὶ αὐτῆς διανοηθέντες;
CL. Having what sort of thing in mind about it?
ΑΘ. ὡς οἱ τότε περιφυγόντες τὴν φθορὰν σχεδὸν ὄρειοί τινες ἂν εἶεν νομῆς, ἐν κορυφαῖς που σμικρὰ ζώπυρα τοῦ τῶν ἀνθρώπων διασεσωμένα γένους.
ATH. That those who then escaped the destruction would be, presumably, some mountain shepherds, small embers of the human race preserved somewhere on the mountain peaks.
ΚΛ. δῆλον.
CL. Plainly.
ΑΘ. καὶ δὴ τοὺς τοιούτους γε ἀνάγκη που τῶν ἄλλων ἀπείρους εἶναι τεχνῶν καὶ τῶν ἐν τοῖς ἄστεσι πρὸς ἀλλήλους μηχανῶν εἴς τε πλεονεξίας καὶ φιλονικίας καὶ ὁπόσʼ ἄλλα κακουργήματα πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἐπινοοῦσιν.
ATH. And indeed, such people must surely be inexperienced in the other arts and in the devices of those in the cities against one another for greed and rivalry and whatever other evils they devise against one another.
ΚΛ. εἰκὸς γοῦν.
CL. Likely indeed.
ΑΘ. θῶμεν δὴ τὰς ἐν τοῖς πεδίοις πόλεις καὶ πρὸς θαλάττῃ κατοικούσας ἄρδην ἐν τῷ τότε χρόνῳ διαφθείρεσθαι;
ATH. Let us assume, then, that the cities situated in the plains and near the sea were utterly destroyed at that time?
ΚΛ. θῶμεν.
CL. Let us assume so.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὄργανά τε πάντα ἀπόλλυσθαι, καὶ εἴ τι τέχνης ἦν ἐχόμενον σπουδαίως ηὑρημένον ἢ πολιτικῆς ἢ καὶ σοφίας τινὸς ἑτέρας, πάντα ἔρρειν ταῦτα ἐν τῷ τότε χρόνῳ φήσομεν;
ATH. Is it not, then, that all tools were destroyed, and if there was any invention carefully discovered of art, either of politics or of some other wisdom, shall we say that all these perished at that time?
πῶς γὰρ ἄν, ὦ ἄριστε, εἴ γε ἔμενεν τάδε οὕτω τὸν πάντα χρόνον ὡς νῦν διακεκόσμηται, καινὸν ἀνηυρίσκετό ποτε καὶ ὁτιοῦν;
For how, O best of men, if indeed these things had remained for all time in the way they are now ordered, could anything at all have ever been newly discovered?
ΚΛ. τοῦτο ὅτι μὲν μυριάκις μύρια ἔτη διελάνθανεν ἄρα τοὺς τότε, χίλια δὲ ἀφʼ οὗ γέγονεν ἢ δὶς τοσαῦτα ἔτη, τὰ μὲν Δαιδάλῳ καταφανῆ γέγονεν, τὰ δὲ Ὀρφεῖ, τὰ δὲ Παλαμήδει, τὰ δὲ περὶ μουσικὴν Μαρσύᾳ καὶ Ὀλύμπῳ, περὶ λύραν δὲ Ἀμφίονι, τὰ δὲ ἄλλα ἄλλοις πάμπολλα, ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν χθὲς καὶ πρῴην γεγονότα.
CL. Indeed, that this fact, that for tens of thousands of years these things remained unknown to those of that time, whereas it is a thousand or twice as many years since they came to light, some discovered by Daedalus, others by Orpheus, others by Palamedes, those concerning music by Marsyas and Olympus, and concerning the lyre by Amphion, and countless other things by others, having come into existence, so to speak, yesterday and the day before.
ΑΘ. ἄριστʼ, ὦ Κλεινία, τὸν φίλον ὅτι παρέλιπες, τὸν ἀτεχνῶς χθὲς γενόμενον.
ATH. Excellently, O Cleinias, did you omit your friend, who came into being literally yesterday.
ΚΛ. μῶν φράζεις Ἐπιμενίδην;
CL. Do you mean Epimenides?
ΑΘ. ναί, τοῦτον·
ATH.
πολὺ γὰρ ὑμῖν ὑπερεπήδησε τῷ μηχανήματι τοὺς σύμπαντας, ὦ φίλε, ὃ λόγῳ μὲν Ἡσίοδος ἐμαντεύετο πάλαι, τῷ δὲ ἔργῳ ἐκεῖνος ἀπετέλεσεν, ὡς ὑμεῖς φατε.
Yes, him; for he far surpassed all others for you with his device, O friend, which Hesiod prophesied in word long ago, but he completed in deed, as you say.
ΚΛ. φαμὲν γὰρ οὖν.
CL. Indeed, we do say so.