§2.673ΑΘ. τὸ δέ γε κατὰ τὴν τοῦ σώματος κίνησιν ῥυθμὸν μὲν κοινὸν τῇ τῆς φωνῆς εἶχε κινήσει, σχῆμα δὲ ἴδιον.
ATH. On the other hand, the part concerning the movement of the body had rhythm in common with the movement of the voice, but had figure as its own property.
ἐκεῖ δὲ μέλος ἡ τῆς φωνῆς κίνησις.
And in that other case, the movement of the voice was melody.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα.
CL. Very true.
ΑΘ. τὰ μὲν τοίνυν τῆς φωνῆς μέχρι τῆς ψυχῆς πρὸς ἀρετὴν παιδείας οὐκ οἶδʼ ὅντινα τρόπον ὠνομάσαμεν μουσικήν.
ATH. Now, the parts of the voice, as far as they reach the soul for the sake of education toward virtue, we named, I know not in what way, music.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς μὲν οὖν.
CL. Indeed, rightly.
ΑΘ. τὰ δέ γε τοῦ σώματος, ἃ παιζόντων ὄρχησιν εἴπομεν, ἐὰν μέχρι τῆς τοῦ σώματος ἀρετῆς ἡ τοιαύτη κίνησις γίγνηται, τὴν ἔντεχνον ἀγωγὴν ἐπὶ τὸ τοιοῦτον αὐτοῦ γυμναστικὴν προσείπωμεν.
ATH. And the parts of the body, which we called the dance of those playing—if such a movement occurs for the sake of the virtue of the body, let us call its artistic guidance toward this gymnastics.
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα.
CL. Most rightly.
ΑΘ. τὸ δὲ τῆς μουσικῆς, ὃ νυνδὴ σχεδὸν ἥμισυ διεληλυθέναι τῆς χορείας εἴπομεν καὶ διαπεπεράνθαι, καὶ νῦν οὕτως εἰρήσθω·
ATH. Now as for the part of music, which we just said has gone through about half of choral training and has been completed, let it be spoken of in this way even now.
τὸ δʼ ἥμισυ λέγωμεν, ἢ πῶς καὶ πῇ ποιητέον;
But let us speak of the other half, or how and in what way should it be done?
ΚΛ. ὦ ἄριστε, Κρησὶν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίοις διαλεγόμενος, μουσικῆς πέρι διελθόντων ἡμῶν, ἐλλειπόντων δὲ γυμναστικῆς, τί ποτε οἴει σοι πότερον ἡμῶν ἀποκρινεῖσθαι πρὸς ταύτην τὴν ἐρώτησιν;
CL. O best of men, since you are conversing with Cretans and Lacedaemonians, when we have gone through music but are lacking in gymnastics, what do you think either of us will answer you to this question?
ΑΘ. ἀποκεκρίσθαι ἔγωγʼ ἄν σε φαίην σχεδὸν ταῦτʼ ἐρόμενον σαφῶς, καὶ μανθάνω ὡς ἐρώτησις οὖσα αὕτη τὰ νῦν ἀπόκρισίς τέ ἐστιν, ὡς εἶπον, καὶ ἔτι πρόσταξις διαπεράνασθαι τὰ περὶ γυμναστικῆς.
ATH. I should say that you have answered pretty clearly by asking this, and I understand that this question of yours is at present both an answer, as I said, and further a command to complete the matters concerning gymnastics.
ΚΛ. ἄρισθʼ ὑπέλαβές τε καὶ οὕτω δὴ ποίει.
CL. You have understood excellently, and so do indeed.
ΑΘ. ποιητέον·
ATH. It must be done.
οὐδὲ γὰρ πάνυ χαλεπόν ἐστιν εἰπεῖν ὑμῖν γε ἀμφοτέροις γνώριμα.
For indeed it is not at all difficult to speak of things familiar to both of you.
πολὺ γὰρ ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ τέχνῃ πλέον ἐμπειρίας ἢ ἐν ἐκείνῃ μετέχετε.
For you share in much more experience in this art than in that one.
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν ἀληθῆ λέγεις.
CL. You speak almost the truth.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν αὖ ταύτης ἀρχὴ μὲν τῆς παιδιᾶς τὸ κατὰ φύσιν πηδᾶν εἰθίσθαι πᾶν ζῷον, τὸ δὲ ἀνθρώπινον, ὡς ἔφαμεν, αἴσθησιν λαβὸν τοῦ ῥυθμοῦ ἐγέννησέν τε ὄρχησιν καὶ ἔτεκεν, τοῦ δὲ μέλους ὑπομιμνῄσκοντος καὶ ἐγείροντος τὸν ῥυθμόν, κοινωθέντʼ ἀλλήλοις χορείαν καὶ παιδιὰν ἐτεκέτην.
ATH. Now then, the beginning of this play is the natural habit of jumping of every animal; but the human animal, as we said, having received a sense of rhythm, generated and brought forth dance, and when melody reminded and awakened the rhythm, they, having shared with one another, brought forth choral training and play.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα.
CL. Very true.
ΑΘ. καὶ τὸ μέν, φαμέν, ἤδη διεληλύθαμεν αὐτοῦ, τὸ δὲ πειρασόμεθα ἐφεξῆς διελθεῖν.
ATH. And the one part, we say, we have already gone through, and the other we shall try to go through next.
ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
CL. By all means.
ΑΘ. ἐπὶ τοίνυν τῇ τῆς μέθης χρείᾳ τὸν κολοφῶνα πρῶτον ἐπιθῶμεν, εἰ καὶ σφῷν συνδοκεῖ.
ATH. Therefore, upon the use of drunkenness let us first place the crown, if it seems good to you both as well.
ΚΛ. ποῖον δὴ καὶ τίνα λέγεις;
CL. What kind and which do you mean?
ΑΘ. εἰ μέν τις πόλις ὡς οὔσης σπουδῆς τῷ ἐπιτηδεύματι τῷ νῦν εἰρημένῳ χρήσεται μετὰ νόμων καὶ τάξεως, ὡς τοῦ σωφρονεῖν ἕνεκα μελέτῃ χρωμένη, καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἡδονῶν μὴ ἀφέξεται ὡσαύτως καὶ κατὰ τὸν αὐτὸν λόγον, τοῦ κρατεῖν αὐτῶν ἕνεκα μηχανωμένη, τοῦτον μὲν τὸν τρόπον ἅπασι τούτοις χρηστέον·
ATH. If indeed some city will use the practice now mentioned with laws and order as being of serious concern, practicing it for the sake of self-control, and will not abstain from the other pleasures in the same way and according to the same argument, devising this for the sake of mastering them, in this way all these must be used.
§2.674ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ὡς παιδιᾷ τε, καὶ ἐξέσται τῷ βουλομένῳ καὶ ὅταν βούληται καὶ μεθʼ ὧν ἂν βούληται πίνειν μετʼ ἐπιτηδευμάτων ὡντινωνοῦν ἄλλων, οὐκ ἂν τιθείμην ταύτην τὴν ψῆφον, ὡς δεῖ ποτε μέθῃ χρῆσθαι ταύτην τὴν πόλιν ἢ τοῦτον τὸν ἄνδρα, ἀλλʼ ἔτι μᾶλλον τῆς Κρητῶν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων χρείας προσθείμην ἂν τῷ τῶν Καρχηδονίων νόμῳ, μηδέποτε μηδένα ἐπὶ στρατοπέδου γεύεσθαι τούτου τοῦ πώματος, ἀλλʼ ὑδροποσίαις συγγίγνεσθαι τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ἅπαντα, καὶ κατὰ πόλιν μήτε δούλην μήτε δοῦλον γεύεσθαι μηδέποτε, μηδὲ ἄρχοντας τοῦτον τὸν ἐνιαυτὸν ὃν ἂν ἄρχωσιν, μηδʼ αὖ κυβερνήτας μηδὲ δικαστὰς ἐνεργοὺς ὄντας οἴνου γεύεσθαι τὸ παράπαν, μηδʼ ὅστις βουλευσόμενος εἰς βουλὴν ἀξίαν τινὰ λόγου συνέρχεται, μηδέ γε μεθʼ ἡμέραν μηδένα τὸ παράπαν εἰ μὴ σωμασκίας ἢ νόσων ἕνεκα, μηδʼ αὖ νύκτωρ ὅταν ἐπινοῇ τις παῖδας ποιεῖσθαι ἀνὴρ ἢ καὶ γυνή.
ATH. But if as play, and it will be permitted to whoever wishes, whenever he wishes, and with whomsoever he wishes to drink, along with whatever other practices, I would not cast this vote, that this city or this man should ever use drunkenness, but still more than the Cretan and Lacedaemonian practice, I would add myself to the law of the Carthaginians, that no one ever taste of this drink in a camp, but to associate with water-drinking all this time, and in the city neither a female slave nor a male slave ever taste it, nor rulers during this year in which they rule, nor again pilots nor judges when active taste wine at all, nor whoever comes together to consult into any council worthy of mention, nor indeed anyone at all during the day unless for the sake of physical exercise or illnesses, nor again by night when anyone, man or woman, intends to produce children.
καὶ ἄλλα δὲ πάμπολλα ἄν τις λέγοι ἐν οἷς τοῖς νοῦν τε καὶ νόμον ἔχουσιν ὀρθὸν οὐ ποτέος οἶνος· ὥστε κατὰ τὸν λόγον τοῦτον οὐδʼ ἀμπελώνων ἂν πολλῶν δέοι οὐδʼ ᾗτινι πόλει, τακτὰ δὲ τά τʼ ἄλλʼ ἂν εἴη γεωργήματα καὶ πᾶσα ἡ δίαιτα, καὶ δὴ τά γε περὶ οἶνον σχεδὸν ἁπάντων ἐμμετρότατα καὶ ὀλίγιστα γίγνοιτʼ ἄν.
And one might say many other things in which for those who have intellect and a right law wine is not to be drunk; so that according to this argument there would be no need of many vineyards for any city, but the other agricultural products and the whole diet would be regulated, and indeed the things concerning wine would become the most moderate and the fewest of almost all.
οὗτος, ὦ ξένοι, ἡμῖν, εἰ συνδοκεῖ, κολοφὼν ἐπὶ τῷ περὶ οἴνου λόγῳ ῥηθέντι εἰρήσθω.
Let this, O strangers, if it seems good, be spoken by us as the crown upon the argument concerning wine.
ΚΛ. καλῶς, καὶ συνδοκεῖ.
CL. Beautifully, and it seems good.