§2.671ΑΘ. τὸ γὰρ τρίτον οὐδεμία ἀνάγκη ποιητῇ γιγνώσκειν, εἴτε καλὸν εἴτε μὴ καλὸν τὸ μίμημα, τὸ δὲ ἁρμονίας καὶ ῥυθμοῦ σχεδὸν ἀνάγκη, τοῖς δὲ πάντα τὰ τρία τῆς ἐκλογῆς ἕνεκα τοῦ καλλίστου καὶ δευτέρου, ἢ μηδέποτε ἱκανὸν ἐπῳδὸν γίγνεσθαι νέοις πρὸς ἀρετήν.
ATH. For there is no necessity for a poet to know the third thing, whether the imitation is beautiful or not beautiful, but there is almost a necessity for him to know the things of harmony and rhythm; however, for them (the singers), it is necessary to know all three things for the sake of selection of the most beautiful and the second best, or they will never become sufficient charmers for the young toward virtue.
καὶ ὅπερ ὁ λόγος ἐν ἀρχαῖς ἐβουλήθη, τὴν τῷ τοῦ Διονύσου χορῷ βοήθειαν ἐπιδεῖξαι καλῶς λεγομένην, εἰς δύναμιν εἴρηκεν· σκοπώμεθα δὴ εἰ τοῦθʼ οὕτω γέγονεν.
And what the argument wished in the beginning, to show that the assistance to the chorus of Dionysus was beautifully spoken of, has been said to the best of our ability; let us indeed consider if this has turned out so.
θορυβώδης μέν που ὁ σύλλογος ὁ τοιοῦτος ἐξ ἀνάγκης προϊούσης τῆς πόσεως ἐπὶ μᾶλλον ἀεὶ συμβαίνει γιγνόμενος, ὅπερ ὑπεθέμεθα κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἀναγκαῖον εἶναι γίγνεσθαι περὶ τῶν νῦν λεγομένων.
Such a gathering, indeed, as drinking proceeds, naturally always happens to become noisier, which we assumed in the beginning was necessary to happen concerning the things now being spoken of.
ΚΛ. ἀνάγκη.
CL. Necessary indeed.
ΑΘ. πᾶς δέ γε αὐτὸς αὑτοῦ κουφότερος αἴρεται καὶ γέγηθέν τε καὶ παρρησίας ἐμπίμπλαται καὶ ἀνηκουστίας ἐν τῷ τοιούτῳ τῶν πέλας, ἄρχων δʼ ἱκανὸς ἀξιοῖ ἑαυτοῦ τε καὶ τῶν ἄλλων γεγονέναι.
ATH. And everyone raises himself up lighter than himself, and rejoices, and is filled with frankness, and in such a situation, with disobedience toward his neighbors, and deems himself to have become a sufficient ruler of both himself and others.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Of course.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἔφαμεν, ὅταν γίγνηται ταῦτα, καθάπερ τινὰ σίδηρον τὰς ψυχὰς τῶν πινόντων διαπύρους γιγνομένας μαλθακωτέρας γίγνεσθαι καὶ νεωτέρας, ὥστε εὐαγώγους συμβαίνειν τῷ δυναμένῳ τε καὶ ἐπισταμένῳ παιδεύειν τε καὶ πλάττειν, καθάπερ ὅτʼ ἦσαν νέαι;
ATH. Did we not say, then, that when these things happen, the souls of those who drink, becoming red-hot like a certain iron, become softer and younger, so that they happen to be easily led by the one who is able and knows how to educate and shape them, just as when they were young?
τοῦτον δʼ εἶναι τὸν πλάστην τὸν αὐτὸν ὥσπερ τότε, τὸν ἀγαθὸν νομοθέτην, οὗ νόμους εἶναι δεῖ συμποτικούς, δυναμένους τὸν εὔελπιν καὶ θαρραλέον ἐκεῖνον γιγνόμενον καὶ ἀναισχυντότερον τοῦ δέοντος, καὶ οὐκ ἐθέλοντα τάξιν καὶ τὸ κατὰ μέρος σιγῆς καὶ λόγου καὶ πόσεως καὶ μούσης ὑπομένειν, ἐθέλειν ποιεῖν πάντα τούτοις τἀναντία, καὶ εἰσιόντι τῷ μὴ καλῷ θάρρει τὸν κάλλιστον διαμαχόμενον φόβον εἰσπέμπειν οἵους τʼ εἶναι μετὰ δίκης, ὃν αἰδῶ τε καὶ αἰσχύνην θεῖον φόβον ὠνομάκαμεν;
And that this shaper is the same as then, the good legislator, whose laws must be sympotic, being able to make that person who is becoming hopeful, bold, and more shameless than necessary, and unwilling to endure order and the turn of silence, speech, drinking, and music, willing to do all the opposite of these, and when unsuitable boldness enters, to introduce, fighting against it with justice, the most beautiful fear, which we have named awe and shame, the divine fear?
ΚΛ. ἔστιν ταῦτα.
CL. That is so.
ΑΘ. τούτων δέ γε τῶν νόμων εἶναι νομοφύλακας καὶ συνδημιουργοὺς αὐτοῖς τοὺς ἀθορύβους καὶ νήφοντας τῶν μὴ νηφόντων στρατηγούς, ὧν δὴ χωρὶς μέθῃ διαμάχεσθαι δεινότερον ἢ πολεμίοις εἶναι μὴ μετὰ ἀρχόντων ἀθορύβων, καὶ τὸν αὖ μὴ δυνάμενον ἐθέλειν πείθεσθαι τούτοις καὶ τοῖς ἡγεμόσιν τοῖς τοῦ Διονύσου, τοῖς ὑπὲρ ἑξήκοντα ἔτη γεγονόσιν, ἴσην καὶ μείζω τὴν αἰσχύνην φέρειν ἢ τὸν τοῖς τοῦ Ἄρεως ἀπειθοῦντα ἄρχουσιν.
ATH. And of these laws, the guardians and co-creators with them should be the quiet and sober ones, generals of those who are not sober, without whom indeed to contend with drunkenness is more dangerous than to fight with enemies without quiet leaders; and again, for the one who is unable to be willing to obey these and the leaders of Dionysus, those past sixty years old, to bear equal and greater shame than the one who disobeys the leaders of Ares.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CL. Correctly.
§2.672ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν εἴ γε εἴη τοιαύτη μὲν μέθη, τοιαύτη δὲ παιδιά, μῶν οὐκ ὠφεληθέντες ἂν οἱ τοιοῦτοι συμπόται καὶ μᾶλλον φίλοι ἢ πρότερον ἀπαλλάττοιντο ἀλλήλων, ἀλλʼ οὐχ ὥσπερ τὰ νῦν ἐχθροί, κατὰ νόμους δὲ πᾶσαν τὴν συνουσίαν συγγενόμενοι καὶ ἀκολουθήσαντες, ὁπότε ἀφηγοῖντο οἱ νήφοντες τοῖς μὴ νήφουσιν;
ATH. If, then, there should be such a drunkenness and such a play, would not such fellow-drinkers indeed depart from one another benefited and greater friends than before, and not, as now, enemies, having associated and followed throughout the whole assembly according to the laws, whenever the sober lead those who are not sober?
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς, εἴ γε δὴ εἴη τοιαύτη οἵαν νῦν λέγεις.
CL. Correctly, if indeed it should be such as you now say.
ΑΘ. μὴ τοίνυν ἐκεῖνό γʼ ἔτι τῆς τοῦ Διονύσου δωρεᾶς ψέγωμεν ἁπλῶς, ὡς ἔστιν κακὴ καὶ εἰς πόλιν οὐκ ἀξία παραδέχεσθαι.
ATH. Let us not, then, any longer simply blame that gift of Dionysus, as if it is bad and not worthy to be received into a city.
καὶ γὰρ ἔτι πλείω τις ἂν ἐπεξέλθοι λέγων· ἐπεὶ καὶ τὸ μέγιστον ἀγαθὸν ὃ δωρεῖται λέγειν μὲν ὄκνος εἰς τοὺς πολλοὺς διὰ τὸ κακῶς τοὺς ἀνθρώπους αὐτὸ ὑπολαβεῖν καὶ γνῶναι λεχθέν.
For indeed, one could go into even more things in speaking; since even the greatest good which it gifts is a hesitation to speak among the multitude, because of people taking it badly and misunderstanding it when spoken.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δή;
CL. What kind of thing, indeed?
ΑΘ. λόγος τις ἅμα καὶ φήμη ὑπορρεῖ πως ὡς ὁ θεὸς οὗτος ὑπὸ τῆς μητρυᾶς Ἥρας διεφορήθη τῆς ψυχῆς τὴν γνώμην, διὸ τάς τε βακχείας καὶ πᾶσαν τὴν μανικὴν ἐμβάλλει χορείαν τιμωρούμενος· ὅθεν καὶ τὸν οἶνον ἐπὶ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ δεδώρηται.
ATH. A certain story and rumor somehow flows under, that this god was deprived of his soul's reason by his stepmother Hera, wherefore he infuses the Bacchic frenzies and all the mad choral dancing as a punishment; whence also he has gifted wine for this very purpose.
ἐγὼ δὲ τὰ μὲν τοιαῦτα τοῖς ἀσφαλὲς ἡγουμένοις εἶναι λέγειν περὶ θεῶν ἀφίημι λέγειν, τὸ δὲ τοσόνδε οἶδα, ὅτι πᾶν ζῷον, ὅσον αὐτῷ προσήκει νοῦν ἔχειν τελεωθέντι, τοῦτον καὶ τοσοῦτον οὐδὲν ἔχον ποτὲ φύεται· ἐν τούτῳ δὴ τῷ χρόνῳ ἐν ᾧ μήπω κέκτηται τὴν οἰκείαν φρόνησιν, πᾶν μαίνεταί τε καὶ βοᾷ ἀτάκτως, καὶ ὅταν ἀκταινώσῃ ἑαυτὸ τάχιστα, ἀτάκτως αὖ πηδᾷ.
But I leave such things to be spoken of by those who think it is safe to speak about gods, but this much I know, that no animal is ever born possessing that and so much intellect as is fitting for it to have when fully developed; and in this time in which it does not yet possess its proper prudence, it all goes mad and cries out without order, and as soon as it leaps up, it jumps again without order.
ἀναμνησθῶμεν δὲ ὅτι μουσικῆς τε καὶ γυμναστικῆς ἔφαμεν ἀρχὰς ταύτας εἶναι.
And let us remember that we said these are the beginnings of music and gymnastics.
ΚΛ. μεμνήμεθα· τί δʼ οὔ;
CL. We remember; why not indeed?
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ ὅτι τὴν ῥυθμοῦ τε καὶ ἁρμονίας αἴσθησιν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἡμῖν ἐνδεδωκέναι τὴν ἀρχὴν ταύτην ἔφαμεν, Ἀπόλλωνα δὲ καὶ μούσας καὶ Διόνυσον θεῶν αἰτίους γεγονέναι;
ATH. And also that we said this beginning has given the sense of rhythm and harmony to us humans, and that Apollo and the Muses and Dionysus have been the causes among the gods?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL. How indeed not?
ΑΘ. καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸν οἶνόν γε, ὡς ἔοικεν, ὁ τῶν ἄλλων λόγος, ἵνα μανῶμεν, φησὶν ἐπὶ τιμωρίᾳ τῇ τῶν ἀνθρώπων δεδόσθαι· ὁ δὲ νῦν λεγόμενος ὑφʼ ἡμῶν φάρμακον ἐπὶ τοὐναντίον φησὶν αἰδοῦς μὲν ψυχῆς κτήσεως ἕνεκα δεδόσθαι, σώματος δὲ ὑγιείας τε καὶ ἰσχύος.
ATH. And indeed, the story of others says that wine has been given, as it seems, so that we may go mad, as a punishment for humans; but our present argument says, on the contrary, that it was given as a drug for the acquisition of shame in the soul, and for health and strength in the body.
ΚΛ. κάλλιστα, ὦ ξένε, τὸν λόγον ἀπεμνημόνευκας.
CL. Most beautifully, stranger, have you recalled the argument.
ΑΘ. καὶ τὰ μὲν δὴ τῆς χορείας ἡμίσεα διαπεπεράνθω· τὰ δʼ ἡμίσεα, ὅπως ἂν ἔτι δοκῇ, περανοῦμεν ἢ καὶ ἐάσομεν.
ATH. And indeed, let the half of choral dancing be completed; but the other half, as it may still seem fit, we shall complete or even let go.
ΚΛ. ποῖα δὴ λέγεις, καὶ πῶς ἑκάτερα διαιρῶν;
CL. What kind indeed do you mean, and how dividing each?
ΑΘ. ὅλη μέν που χορεία ὅλη παίδευσις ἦν ἡμῖν, τούτου δʼ αὖ τὸ μὲν ῥυθμοί τε καὶ ἁρμονίαι, τὸ κατὰ τὴν φωνήν.
ATH. The whole of choral dancing was indeed for us the whole of education, and of this again, one part is rhythms and harmonies, that concerning the voice.
ΚΛ. ναί.
CL. Yes.