§2.669ΑΘ. τί δʼ εἰ γιγνώσκοιμεν ὅτι τὸ γεγραμμένον ἢ τὸ πεπλασμένον ἐστὶν ἄνθρωπος, καὶ τὰ μέρη πάντα τὰ ἑαυτοῦ καὶ χρώματα ἅμα καὶ σχήματα ἀπείληφεν ὑπὸ τῆς τέχνης;
ATH. What if we should know that the drawn or modeled object is a man, and that all his own parts and colors and shapes have been rendered by art?
ἆρά γε ἀναγκαῖον ἤδη τῷ ταῦτα γνόντι καὶ ἐκεῖνο ἑτοίμως γιγνώσκειν, εἴτε καλὸν εἴτε ὅπῃ ποτὲ ἐλλιπὲς ἂν εἴη κάλλους;
Is it then necessary for the one who has recognized these things to also readily recognize that other thing, whether it is beautiful or in what way it might be lacking in beauty?
ΚΛ. πάντες μεντἂν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν, ὦ ξένε, τὰ καλὰ τῶν ζῴων ἐγιγνώσκομεν.
CL. Indeed, stranger, almost all of us, so to speak, would recognize the beautiful animals.
ΑΘ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
ATH. You speak most correctly.
ἆρʼ οὖν οὐ περὶ ἑκάστην εἰκόνα, καὶ ἐν γραφικῇ καὶ ἐν μουσικῇ καὶ πάντῃ, τὸν μέλλοντα ἔμφρονα κριτὴν ἔσεσθαι δεῖ ταῦτα τρία ἔχειν, ὅ τέ ἐστι πρῶτον γιγνώσκειν, ἔπειτα ὡς ὀρθῶς, ἔπειθʼ ὡς εὖ, τὸ τρίτον, εἴργασται τῶν εἰκόνων ἡτισοῦν ῥήμασί τε καὶ μέλεσι καὶ τοῖς ῥυθμοῖς;
Is it not then necessary, concerning every image, both in painting and in music and everywhere, for the one who is going to be a wise judge to have these three things: first, to know what it is; next, how correctly; and third, how well any of the images has been executed in words, melodies, and rhythms?
ΚΛ. ἔοικε γοῦν.
CL. So it seems, at any rate.
ΑΘ. μὴ τοίνυν ἀπείπωμεν λέγοντες τὸ περὶ τὴν μουσικὴν ᾗ χαλεπόν· ἐπειδὴ γὰρ ὑμνεῖται περὶ αὐτὴν διαφερόντως ἢ τὰς ἄλλας εἰκόνας, εὐλαβείας δὴ δεῖται πλείστης πασῶν εἰκόνων.
ATH. Let us not, then, grow weary in speaking of the difficulty concerning music; for since it is celebrated in a manner outstandingly different from other images, it indeed requires the greatest caution of all images.
ἁμαρτών τε γάρ τις μέγιστʼ ἂν βλάπτοιτο, ἤθη κακὰ φιλοφρονούμενος, χαλεπώτατόν τε αἰσθέσθαι διὰ τὸ τοὺς ποιητὰς φαυλοτέρους εἶναι ποιητὰς αὐτῶν τῶν Μουσῶν.
For if someone makes a mistake, he would be harmed in the greatest degree, by welcoming bad characters, and it is most difficult to perceive because the poets are inferior poets to the Muses themselves.
οὐ γὰρ ἂν ἐκεῖναί γε ἐξαμάρτοιέν ποτε τοσοῦτον ὥστε ῥήματα ἀνδρῶν ποιήσασαι τὸ χρῶμα γυναικῶν καὶ μέλος ἀποδοῦναι, καὶ μέλος ἐλευθέρων αὖ καὶ σχήματα συνθεῖσαι ῥυθμοὺς δούλων καὶ ἀνελευθέρων προσαρμόττειν, οὐδʼ αὖ ῥυθμοὺς καὶ σχῆμα ἐλευθέριον ὑποθεῖσαι μέλος ἢ λόγον ἐναντίον ἀποδοῦναι τοῖς ῥυθμοῖς, ἔτι δὲ θηρίων φωνὰς καὶ ἀνθρώπων καὶ ὀργάνων καὶ πάντας ψόφους εἰς ταὐτὸν οὐκ ἄν ποτε συνθεῖεν, ὡς ἕν τι μιμούμεναι·
For they would never make so great a mistake as to, having composed words for men, assign to them the color and melody of women, or, having composed melody and figures for free men, fit to them the rhythms of slaves and unfree men, nor again, having laid down rhythms and a noble figure, assign a melody or speech contrary to the rhythms; furthermore, they would never combine the voices of beasts and men and instruments and all noises into the same thing, as if imitating one single thing.
ποιηταὶ δὲ ἀνθρώπινοι σφόδρα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐμπλέκοντες καὶ συγκυκῶντες ἀλόγως, γέλωτʼ ἂν παρασκευάζοιεν τῶν ἀνθρώπων ὅσους φησὶν Ὀρφεὺς λαχεῖν ὥραν τῆς τέρψιος.
But human poets, weaving and mixing such things together violently and unreasonably, would provide laughter to those among men whom Orpheus says have obtained the season of pleasure.
ταῦτά γε γὰρ ὁρῶσι πάντα κυκώμενα, καὶ ἔτι διασπῶσιν οἱ ποιηταὶ ῥυθμὸν μὲν καὶ σχήματα μέλους χωρίς, λόγους ψιλοὺς εἰς μέτρα τιθέντες, μέλος δʼ αὖ καὶ ῥυθμὸν ἄνευ ῥημάτων, ψιλῇ κιθαρίσει τε καὶ αὐλήσει προσχρώμενοι, ἐν οἷς δὴ παγχάλεπον ἄνευ λόγου γιγνόμενον ῥυθμόν τε καὶ ἁρμονίαν γιγνώσκειν ὅτι τε βούλεται καὶ ὅτῳ ἔοικε τῶν ἀξιολόγων μιμημάτων·
For they see all these things being mixed up, and furthermore, the poets tear apart rhythm and gestures away from melody, putting bare words into meters, and again melody and rhythm without words, employing bare cithara-playing and flute-playing, in which indeed it is very difficult, when rhythm and harmony become without words, to know what it intends and what of the noteworthy imitations it resembles.
§2.670ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ ὑπολαβεῖν ἀναγκαῖον ὅτι τὸ τοιοῦτόν γε πολλῆς ἀγροικίας μεστὸν πᾶν, ὁπόσον τάχους τε καὶ ἀπταισίας καὶ φωνῆς θηριώδους σφόδρα φίλον ὥστʼ αὐλήσει γε χρῆσθαι καὶ κιθαρίσει πλὴν ὅσον ὑπὸ ὄρχησίν τε καὶ ᾠδήν, ψιλῷ δʼ ἑκατέρῳ πᾶσά τις ἀμουσία καὶ θαυματουργία γίγνοιτʼ ἂν τῆς χρήσεως.
ATH. But it is necessary to assume that all such a thing is full of much rusticity, as much as is extremely friendly to speed and lack of stumbling and beastly voice, so as to use flute-playing and cithara-playing except so far as is for dancing and singing; but when each of the two is bare, the use of it would become a complete lack of culture and a wonder-working.
ταῦτα μὲν ἔχει ταύτῃ λόγον·
These things indeed make sense in this way.
ἡμεῖς δέ γε οὐχ ὅτι μὴ δεῖ ταῖς Μούσαις ἡμῶν προσχρῆσθαι τοὺς ἤδη τριακοντούτας καὶ τῶν πεντήκοντα πέραν γεγονότας σκοπούμεθα, ἀλλʼ ὅτι ποτὲ δεῖ.
But we are considering, not that our citizens who are already thirty and those who have gone past fifty must not use the Muses, but how they must do so.
τόδε μὲν οὖν ἐκ τούτων ὁ λόγος ἡμῖν δοκεῖ μοι σημαίνειν ἤδη, τῆς γε χορικῆς Μούσης ὅτι πεπαιδεῦσθαι δεῖ βέλτιον τοὺς πεντηκοντούτας ὅσοισπερ ἂν ᾄδειν προσήκῃ.
So from these things, the argument seems to me to indicate already, that those fifty years old must be better educated in the choral Muse, whichever of them it is fitting to sing.
τῶν γὰρ ῥυθμῶν καὶ τῶν ἁρμονιῶν ἀναγκαῖον αὐτοῖς ἐστιν εὐαισθήτως ἔχειν καὶ γιγνώσκειν· ἢ πῶς τις τὴν ὀρθότητα γνώσεται τῶν μελῶν, ᾧ προσῆκεν ἢ μὴ προσῆκεν τοῦ δωριστί, καὶ τοῦ ῥυθμοῦ ὃν ὁ ποιητὴς αὐτῷ προσῆψεν, ὀρθῶς ἢ μή;
For it is necessary for them to have a good perception and to know about rhythms and harmonies; or how will anyone know the correctness of melodies, to which the Dorian mode belongs or does not belong, and of the rhythm which the poet has attached to it, whether correctly or not?
ΚΛ. δῆλον ὡς οὐδαμῶς.
CL. Clearly in no way.
ΑΘ. γελοῖος γὰρ ὅ γε πολὺς ὄχλος ἡγούμενος ἱκανῶς γιγνώσκειν τό τε εὐάρμοστον καὶ εὔρυθμον καὶ μή, ὅσοι προσᾴδειν αὐτῶν καὶ βαίνειν ἐν ῥυθμῷ γεγόνασι διηναγκασμένοι, ὅτι δὲ δρῶσιν ταῦτα ἀγνοοῦντες αὐτῶν ἕκαστα, οὐ συλλογίζονται.
ATH. For the great multitude is ridiculous in thinking they know sufficiently what is well-harmonized and well-rhythmed and what is not, as many of them as have been forced to sing along and walk in rhythm, but they do not reason that they do these things while being ignorant of each of them.
τὸ δέ που προσήκοντα μὲν ἔχον πᾶν μέλος ὀρθῶς ἔχει, μὴ προσήκοντα δὲ ἡμαρτημένως.
But surely every melody having its fitting elements is correct, and having unfitting elements is mistaken.
ΚΛ. ἀναγκαιότατα.
CL. Most necessarily.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν ὁ μηδʼ ὅτι ποτʼ ἔχει γιγνώσκων;
ATH. What then of the one who does not even know what it contains?
ἆρα, ὅπερ εἴπομεν, ὡς ὀρθῶς γε αὐτὸ ἔχει, γνώσεταί ποτε ἐν ὁτῳοῦν;
Will he ever know, as we said, whether it is correct in any respect?
ΚΛ. καὶ τίς μηχανή;
CL. What possible means is there?
ΑΘ. τοῦτʼ οὖν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἀνευρίσκομεν αὖ τὰ νῦν, ὅτι τοῖς ᾠδοῖς ἡμῖν, οὓς νῦν παρακαλοῦμεν καὶ ἑκόντας τινὰ τρόπον ἀναγκάζομεν ᾄδειν, μέχρι γε τοσούτου πεπαιδεῦσθαι σχεδὸν ἀναγκαῖον, μέχρι τοῦ δυνατὸν εἶναι συνακολουθεῖν ἕκαστον ταῖς τε βάσεσιν τῶν ῥυθμῶν καὶ ταῖς χορδαῖς ταῖς τῶν μελῶν, ἵνα καθορῶντες τάς τε ἁρμονίας καὶ τοὺς ῥυθμούς, ἐκλέγεσθαί τε τὰ προσήκοντα οἷοί τʼ ὦσιν ἃ τοῖς τηλικούτοις τε καὶ τοιούτοις ᾄδειν πρέπον, καὶ οὕτως ᾄδωσιν, καὶ ᾄδοντες αὐτοί τε ἡδονὰς τὸ παραχρῆμα ἀσινεῖς ἥδωνται καὶ τοῖς νεωτέροις ἡγεμόνες ἠθῶν χρηστῶν ἀσπασμοῦ προσήκοντος γίγνωνται·
ATH. This, then, it seems, we find again now, that for our singers, whom we now call upon and in a certain way compel to sing willingly, it is almost necessary to be educated up to this point: up to the point of each being able to follow the steps of the rhythms and the strings of the melodies, so that, looking at the harmonies and the rhythms, they may be able to choose the fitting things which it is proper for men of such age and character to sing, and thus sing, and singing they themselves may enjoy harmless pleasures immediately, and become leaders of good habits to the youngsters with fitting welcome.
μέχρι δὲ τοσούτου παιδευθέντες ἀκριβεστέραν ἂν παιδείαν τῆς ἐπὶ τὸ πλῆθος φερούσης εἶεν μετακεχειρισμένοι καὶ τῆς περὶ τοὺς ποιητὰς αὐτούς.
And being educated up to this point, they would have handled a more precise education than the one leading to the multitude, and also than the one concerning the poets themselves.