§2.665ΑΘ. τῇ δὴ τῆς κινήσεως τάξει ῥυθμὸς ὄνομα εἴη, τῇ δὲ αὖ τῆς φωνῆς, τοῦ τε ὀξέος ἅμα καὶ βαρέος συγκεραννυμένων, ἁρμονία ὄνομα προσαγορεύοιτο, χορεία δὲ τὸ συναμφότερον κληθείη.
ATH. To the order of movement, indeed, let 'rhythm' be the name; and to that of the voice, in turn, when the acute and the grave are blended together, let 'harmony' be the name addressed; and let the combination of both be called 'chorea'.
θεοὺς δὲ ἔφαμεν ἐλεοῦντας ἡμᾶς συγχορευτάς τε καὶ χορηγοὺς ἡμῖν δεδωκέναι τόν τε Ἀπόλλωνα καὶ μούσας, καὶ δὴ καὶ τρίτον ἔφαμεν, εἰ μεμνήμεθα, Διόνυσον.
And we said that the gods, pitying us, had given us Apollo and the Muses as fellow-dancers and chorus-leaders, and indeed we also said, if we remember, a third, Dionysus.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὐ μεμνήμεθα;
CL. How indeed could we not remember?
ΑΘ. ὁ μὲν τοίνυν τοῦ Ἀπόλλωνος καὶ τῶν Μουσῶν χορὸς εἴρηνται, τὸν δὲ τρίτον καὶ τὸν λοιπὸν χορὸν ἀνάγκη τοῦ Διονύσου λέγεσθαι.
ATH. The chorus of Apollo and the Muses, then, has been spoken of; but the third and remaining chorus must necessarily be said to belong to Dionysus.
ΚΛ. πῶς δή;
CL. How so?
λέγε· μάλα γὰρ ἄτοπος γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὥς γε ἐξαίφνης ἀκούσαντι Διονύσου πρεσβυτῶν χορός, εἰ ἄρα οἱ ὑπὲρ τριάκοντα καὶ πεντήκοντα δὲ γεγονότες ἔτη μέχρι ἑξήκοντα αὐτῷ χορεύσουσιν.
Tell us; for a chorus of old men belonging to Dionysus would indeed seem very strange to anyone hearing it suddenly, if indeed those who have passed thirty, and even fifty years of age up to sixty, are to dance for him.
ΑΘ. ἀληθέστατα μέντοι λέγεις.
ATH. You speak most truly, indeed.
λόγου δὴ δεῖ πρὸς ταῦτα οἶμαι, ὅπῃ τοῦτο εὔλογον οὕτω γιγνόμενον ἂν γίγνοιτο.
There is need, I think, of an argument in reply to this, to show how this, occurring in such a way, might be reasonable.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Indeed, how not?
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἡμῖν τά γε ἔμπροσθεν ὁμολογεῖται;
ATH. Is there then agreement between us, at least on what went before?
ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι;
CL. Concerning what?
ΑΘ. τὸ δεῖν πάντʼ ἄνδρα καὶ παῖδα, ἐλεύθερον καὶ δοῦλον, θῆλύν τε καὶ ἄρρενα, καὶ ὅλῃ τῇ πόλει ὅλην τὴν πόλιν αὐτὴν αὑτῇ ἐπᾴδουσαν μὴ παύεσθαί ποτε ταῦτα ἃ διεληλύθαμεν, ἁμῶς γέ πως ἀεὶ μεταβαλλόμενα καὶ πάντως παρεχόμενα ποικιλίαν, ὥστε ἀπληστίαν εἶναί τινα τῶν ὕμνων τοῖς ᾄδουσιν καὶ ἡδονήν.
ATH. That every man and child, free and slave, female and male, and the whole city to the whole city, should never cease chanting to itself these things that we have gone through, constantly changing them in some way or other and offering every variety, so that there may be a certain insatiability for the hymns among those who sing, and pleasure.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὐχ ὁμολογοῖτʼ ἂν δεῖν ταῦτα οὕτω πράττεσθαι;
CL. How indeed could it not be agreed that these things ought to be done in this way?
ΑΘ. ποῦ δὴ τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν τὸ ἄριστον τῆς πόλεως, ἡλικίαις τε καὶ ἅμα φρονήσεσιν πιθανώτατον ὂν τῶν ἐν τῇ πόλει, ᾆδον τὰ κάλλιστα μέγιστʼ ἂν ἐξεργάζοιτο ἀγαθά;
ATH. Where, then, would this best part of our city—which, by age and at the same time by wisdom, is the most persuasive of those in the city—by singing the most beautiful things, produce the greatest goods?
ἢ τοῦτο ἀνοήτως οὕτως ἀφήσομεν, ὃ κυριώτατον ἂν εἴη τῶν καλλίστων τε καὶ ὠφελιμωτάτων ᾠδῶν;
Or shall we so foolishly let this go, which would be the most authoritative element of the most beautiful and beneficial songs?
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ ἀδύνατον τὸ μεθιέναι, ὥς γε τὰ νῦν λεγόμενα.
CL. But it is impossible to let it go, at least according to what is now being said.
ΑΘ. πῶς οὖν πρέπον ἂν εἴη τοῦτο;
ATH. How then would this be fitting?
ὁρᾶτε εἰ τῇδε.
See if it is in this way.
ΚΛ. πῇ δή;
CL. In what way indeed?
ΑΘ. πᾶς που γιγνόμενος πρεσβύτερος ὄκνου πρὸς τὰς ᾠδὰς μεστός, καὶ χαίρει τε ἧττον πράττων τοῦτο καὶ ἀνάγκης γιγνομένης αἰσχύνοιτʼ ἂν μᾶλλον, ὅσῳ πρεσβύτερος καὶ σωφρονέστερος γίγνεται, τόσῳ μᾶλλον.
ATH. Everyone, I suppose, as he becomes older, is full of hesitation toward songs, and takes less pleasure in doing this; and if a necessity arises, he would feel more shame, the older and more temperate he becomes, so much the more.
ἆρʼ οὐχ οὕτως;
Is it not so?
ΚΛ. οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
CL. So it is indeed.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἐν θεάτρῳ γε καὶ παντοίοις ἀνθρώποις ᾄδειν ἑστὼς ὀρθὸς ἔτι μᾶλλον αἰσχύνοιτʼ ἄν· καὶ ταῦτά γʼ εἰ καθάπερ οἱ περὶ νίκης χοροὶ ἀγωνιζόμενοι πεφωνασκηκότες ἰσχνοί τε καὶ ἄσιτοι ἀναγκάζοιντο ᾄδειν οἱ τοιοῦτοι, παντάπασίν που ἀηδῶς τε καὶ αἰσχυντηλῶς ᾄδοντες ἀπροθύμως ἂν τοῦτʼ ἐργάζοιντο;
ATH. Therefore, in a theater, at any rate, and before all kinds of people, standing upright to sing, he would feel even more shame; and that too if, like choruses competing for victory, such men were forced to sing after training their voices, having become thin and fasting—would they not perform this quite unpleasantly and shamefully, singing with reluctance?
§2.666ΚΛ. ἀναγκαιότατα μέντοι λέγεις.
CL. You speak indeed most necessarily.
ΑΘ. πῶς οὖν αὐτοὺς παραμυθησόμεθα προθύμους εἶναι πρὸς τὰς ᾠδάς;
ATH. How then shall we encourage them to be eager for songs?
ἆρʼ οὐ νομοθετήσομεν πρῶτον μὲν τοὺς παῖδας μέχρι ἐτῶν ὀκτωκαίδεκα τὸ παράπαν οἴνου μὴ γεύεσθαι, διδάσκοντες ὡς οὐ χρὴ πῦρ ἐπὶ πῦρ ὀχετεύειν εἴς τε τὸ σῶμα καὶ τὴν ψυχήν, πρὶν ἐπὶ τοὺς πόνους ἐγχειρεῖν πορεύεσθαι, τὴν ἐμμανῆ εὐλαβουμένους ἕξιν τῶν νέων· μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο οἴνου μὲν δὴ γεύεσθαι τοῦ μετρίου μέχρι τριάκοντα ἐτῶν, μέθης δὲ καὶ πολυοινίας τὸ παράπαν τὸν νέον ἀπέχεσθαι· τετταράκοντα δὲ ἐπιβαίνοντα ἐτῶν, ἐν τοῖς συσσιτίοις εὐωχηθέντα, καλεῖν τούς τε ἄλλους θεοὺς καὶ δὴ καὶ Διόνυσον παρακαλεῖν εἰς τὴν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων τελετὴν ἅμα καὶ παιδιάν, ἣν τοῖς ἀνθρώποις ἐπίκουρον τῆς τοῦ γήρως αὐστηρότητος ἐδωρήσατο τὸν οἶνον φάρμακον, ὥστε ἀνηβᾶν ἡμᾶς, καὶ δυσθυμίας λήθῃ γίγνεσθαι μαλακώτερον ἐκ σκληροτέρου τὸ τῆς ψυχῆς ἦθος, καθάπερ εἰς πῦρ σίδηρον ἐντεθέντα γιγνόμενον, καὶ οὕτως εὐπλαστότερον εἶναι;
Shall we not legislate, first, that children up to eighteen years of age are not to taste wine at all, teaching them that one must not channel fire upon fire into both body and soul, before they set about proceeding to their labors, guarding against the frantic disposition of the young; and after this, indeed, to taste wine in moderation up to thirty years of age, but that the young person must entirely abstain from drunkenness and excessive drinking; and when embarking upon forty years, after feasting in the common meals, he should call upon the other gods and especially invite Dionysus to the ritual and at the same time play of the older men, which Dionysus gave to humans as an ally against the harshness of old age, the wine as a medicine, so that we might rejuvenate, and through forgetfulness of despondency, the character of the soul might become softer from being harder, just as iron becomes when put into fire, and thus be more easily molded?
πρῶτον μὲν δὴ διατεθεὶς οὕτως ἕκαστος ἆρʼ οὐκ ἂν ἐθέλοι προθυμότερόν γε, ἧττον αἰσχυνόμενος, οὐκ ἐν πολλοῖς ἀλλὰ ἐν μετρίοις, καὶ οὐκ ἐν ἀλλοτρίοις ἀλλʼ ἐν οἰκείοις, ᾄδειν τε καὶ ὃ πολλάκις εἰρήκαμεν ἐπᾴδειν;
First, then, being disposed in this way, would not each one wish more eagerly, feeling less shame, to sing and, as we have often said, chant as an incantation—not among a crowd but among moderate numbers, and not among strangers but among his own?
ΚΛ. καὶ πολύ γε.
CL. Yes, by far indeed.
ΑΘ. εἰς μέν γε τὸ προάγειν τοίνυν αὐτοὺς μετέχειν ἡμῖν ᾠδῆς οὗτος ὁ τρόπος οὐκ ἂν παντάπασιν ἀσχήμων γίγνοιτο.
ATH. For the purpose of leading them forward to share in song with us, then, this method would not be altogether unseemly.
ΚΛ. οὐδαμῶς.
CL. In no way.
ΑΘ. ποίαν δὲ ἥσουσιν οἱ ἄνδρες φωνήν;
ATH. But what kind of voice will the men utter?
ἢ μοῦσαν δῆλον ὅτι πρέπουσαν αὑτοῖς δεῖ γέ τινα;
Is it not clear that they must sing some Muse that is fitting for themselves?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL. For how not?
ΑΘ. τίς ἂν οὖν πρέποι θείοις ἀνδράσιν;
ATH. Which one, then, would be fitting for divine men?
ἆρʼ ἂν ἡ τῶν χορῶν;
Would it be that of the choruses?
ΚΛ. ἡμεῖς γοῦν, ὦ ξένε, καὶ οἵδε οὐκ ἄλλην ἄν τινα δυναίμεθα ᾠδὴν ἢ ἣν ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς ἐμάθομεν συνήθεις ᾄδειν γενόμενοι.
CL. We, at least, my guest, and these men here, could not sing any other song than the one we learned in the choruses, having become accustomed to sing it.
ΑΘ. εἰκότως γε·
ATH.
ὄντως γὰρ οὐκ ἐπήβολοι γεγόνατε τῆς καλλίστης ᾠδῆς.
Reasonably so; for in truth you have not attained the most beautiful song.
στρατοπέδου γὰρ πολιτείαν ἔχετε ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐν ἄστεσι κατῳκηκότων, ἀλλʼ οἷον ἁθρόους πώλους ἐν ἀγέλῃ νεμομένους φορβάδας τοὺς νέους κέκτησθε·
For you possess the constitution of a military camp rather than of people settled in cities, but you keep your young like a herd of colts feeding together in a pasture.