§2.660ΑΘ. καθάπερ τοῖς κάμνουσίν τε καὶ ἀσθενῶς ἴσχουσιν τὰ σώματα ἐν ἡδέσι τισὶν σιτίοις καὶ πώμασι τὴν χρηστὴν πειρῶνται τροφὴν προσφέρειν οἷς μέλει τούτων, τὴν δὲ τῶν πονηρῶν ἐν ἀηδέσιν, ἵνα τὴν μὲν ἀσπάζωνται, τὴν δὲ μισεῖν ὀρθῶς ἐθίζωνται. ταὐτὸν δὴ καὶ τὸν ποιητικὸν ὁ ὀρθὸς νομοθέτης ἐν τοῖς καλοῖς ῥήμασι καὶ ἐπαινετοῖς πείσει τε, καὶ ἀναγκάσει μὴ πείθων, τὰ τῶν σωφρόνων τε καὶ ἀνδρείων καὶ πάντως ἀγαθῶν ἀνδρῶν ἔν τε ῥυθμοῖς σχήματα καὶ ἐν ἁρμονίαισιν μέλη ποιοῦντα ὀρθῶς ποιεῖν.
ATH. Just as for those who are sick and weak in their bodies, those whose concern these things are try to offer beneficial nourishment in some pleasant food and drink, but harmful nourishment in unpleasant ones, so that they may welcome the former and be correctly accustomed to hate the latter; in indeed the same way, the correct lawgiver will, with beautiful and praiseworthy words, persuade, and compel if not persuading, the poet to compose correctly when composing the figures in rhythms and melodies in harmonies of temperate, courageous, and in every way good men.
ΚΛ. νῦν οὖν οὕτω δοκοῦσίν σοι, πρὸς Διός, ὦ ξένε, ἐν ταῖς ἄλλαις πόλεσι ποιεῖν;
CL. Do you then think, by Zeus, my guest, that they do so now in the other cities?
ἐγὼ μὲν γὰρ καθʼ ὅσον αἰσθάνομαι, πλὴν παρʼ ἡμῖν ἢ παρὰ Λακεδαιμονίοις, ἃ σὺ νῦν λέγεις οὐκ οἶδα πραττόμενα, καινὰ δὲ ἄττα ἀεὶ γιγνόμενα περί τε τὰς ὀρχήσεις καὶ περὶ τὴν ἄλλην μουσικὴν σύμπασαν, οὐχ ὑπὸ νόμων μεταβαλλόμενα ἀλλʼ ὑπό τινων ἀτάκτων ἡδονῶν, πολλοῦ δεουσῶν τῶν αὐτῶν εἶναι καὶ κατὰ ταὐτά, ὡς σὺ κατʼ Αἴγυπτον ἀφερμηνεύεις, ἀλλʼ οὐδέποτε τῶν αὐτῶν.
For as far as I perceive, except among us and among the Lacedaemonians, I do not know of the things you are now saying being practiced, but rather some new things are always occurring both concerning dances and concerning all the rest of music, being changed not by laws but by certain disorderly pleasures, which are far from being the same and in the same manner, as you explained in the case of Egypt, but are never the same.
ΑΘ. ἄριστά γʼ, ὦ Κλεινία.
ATH. Excellent indeed, Cleinias.
εἰ δʼ ἔδοξά σοι ἃ σὺ λέγεις λέγειν ὡς νῦν γιγνόμενα, οὐκ ἂν θαυμάζοιμι εἰ μὴ σαφῶς λέγων ἃ διανοοῦμαι τοῦτο ἐποίησα καὶ ἔπαθον· ἀλλʼ ἃ βούλομαι γίγνεσθαι περὶ μουσικήν, τοιαῦτʼ ἄττα εἶπον ἴσως ὥστε σοὶ δόξαι ταῦτα ἐμὲ λέγειν.
But if I seemed to you to say the things you say as though they are happening now, I would not wonder if, by not speaking clearly what I think, I did and suffered this; rather, I spoke of such things as I wish to happen concerning music, so that perhaps it seemed to you that I was saying these things as now existing.
λοιδορεῖν γὰρ πράγματα ἀνίατα καὶ πόρρω προβεβηκότα ἁμαρτίας οὐδαμῶς ἡδύ, ἀναγκαῖον δʼ ἐνίοτέ ἐστιν.
For to reproach matters that are incurable and have gone far in error is by no means pleasant, but is sometimes necessary.
ἐπειδὴ δὲ ταῦτα συνδοκεῖ καὶ σοί, φέρε, φῂς παρʼ ὑμῖν καὶ τοῖσδε μᾶλλον ἢ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις Ἕλλησιν γίγνεσθαι τὰ τοιαῦτα;
But since you also agree on these things, come, do you say that such things happen among you and these men more than among the other Greeks?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Why not indeed?
ΑΘ. τί δʼ εἰ καὶ παρὰ τοῖς ἄλλοις γίγνοιθʼ οὕτω;
ATH. And what if indeed it should happen in this way among the others as well?
πότερον αὐτὰ καλλιόνως οὕτως εἶναι φαῖμεν ἂν ἢ καθάπερ νῦν γίγνεται γιγνόμενα;
Should we say that it is better in this way or as it is now happening?
ΚΛ. πολύ που τὸ διαφέρον, εἰ καθάπερ παρά τε τοῖσδε καὶ παρʼ ἡμῖν, καὶ ἔτι καθάπερ εἶπες σὺ νυνδὴ δεῖν εἶναι, γίγνοιτο.
CL. The difference would be great, I suppose, if it should happen as indeed among these men and among us, and further as you said just now it ought to be.
ΑΘ. φέρε δή, συνομολογησώμεθα τὰ νῦν.
ATH. Come then, let us agree on the present matters.
ἄλλο τι παρʼ ὑμῖν ἐν πάσῃ παιδείᾳ καὶ μουσικῇ τὰ λεγόμενά ἐστι τάδε;
Is it not indeed the case among you that in all education and music these are the things said?
τοὺς ποιητὰς ἀναγκάζετε λέγειν ὡς ὁ μὲν ἀγαθὸς ἀνὴρ σώφρων ὢν καὶ δίκαιος εὐδαίμων ἐστὶ καὶ μακάριος, ἐάντε μέγας καὶ ἰσχυρὸς ἐάντε μικρὸς καὶ ἀσθενὴς ᾖ, καὶ ἐὰν πλουτῇ καὶ μή· ἐὰν δὲ ἄρα πλουτῇ μὲν Κινύρα τε καὶ Μίδα μᾶλλον, ᾖ δὲ ἄδικος, ἄθλιός τʼ ἐστὶ καὶ ἀνιαρῶς ζῇ.
You compel the poets to say that the good man, being temperate and just, is happy and blessed, whether he is great and strong or small and weak, and whether he is rich or not; but if indeed he is richer even than Cinyras and Midas, yet is unjust, he is wretched and lives painfully.