§2.658ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὐκ ὀρθῶς λέγεταί τε τοῦτο καὶ πράττοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ ταύτῃ γίγνοιτο;
ATH. Shall we not say that this is both correctly said and would be correctly practiced, if it should happen in this way?
ΚΛ. τάχʼ ἄν.
CL. Perhaps so.
ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ μακάριε, μὴ ταχὺ τὸ τοιοῦτον κρίνωμεν, ἀλλὰ διαιροῦντες αὐτὸ κατὰ μέρη σκοπώμεθα τοιῷδέ τινι τρόπῳ· τί ἄν, εἴ ποτέ τις οὕτως ἁπλῶς ἀγῶνα θείη ὁντινοῦν, μηδὲν ἀφορίσας μήτε γυμνικὸν μήτε μουσικὸν μήθʼ ἱππικόν, ἀλλὰ πάντας συναγαγὼν τοὺς ἐν τῇ πόλει προείποι, θεὶς νικητήρια, τὸν βουλόμενον ἥκειν ἀγωνιούμενον ἡδονῆς πέρι μόνον, ὃς δʼ ἂν τέρψῃ τοὺς θεατὰς μάλιστα, μηδὲν ἐπιταττόμενος ᾧτινι τρόπῳ, νικήσῃ δὲ αὐτὸ τοῦτο ὅτι μάλιστα ἀπεργασάμενος καὶ κριθῇ τῶν ἀγωνισαμένων ἥδιστος γεγονέναι—τί ποτʼ ἂν ἡγούμεθα ἐκ ταύτης τῆς προρρήσεως συμβαίνειν;
ATH. But, my good friend, let us not judge such a matter hastily, but dividing it into parts, let us consider it in some such way as this: What if someone should once set up any contest whatever simply in this way, without defining it as either gymnastic, musical, or equestrian, but having gathered all the people in the city, should announce beforehand, having established prizes, that anyone who wishes may come to compete concerning pleasure alone, and whoever pleases the spectators most, without any instruction as to in what manner, but wins by having accomplished this very thing to the highest degree, and is judged to have been the most pleasant of those who competed—what indeed do we think would happen from this announcement?
ΚΛ. τοῦ πέρι λέγεις;
CL. Concerning what do you mean?
ΑΘ. εἰκός που τὸν μέν τινα ἐπιδεικνύναι, καθάπερ Ὅμηρος, ῥαψῳδίαν, ἄλλον δὲ κιθαρῳδίαν, τὸν δέ τινα τραγῳδίαν, τὸν δʼ αὖ κωμῳδίαν, οὐ θαυμαστὸν δὲ εἴ τις καὶ θαύματα ἐπιδεικνὺς μάλιστʼ ἂν νικᾶν ἡγοῖτο·
ATH. It is likely, I suppose, that one person, like Homer, would exhibit rhapsodical performance, another a citharodic performance, another some tragedy, and another in turn comedy; and it would not be surprising if someone, by exhibiting puppet-shows, should think that he would win most of all.
τούτων δὴ τοιούτων καὶ ἑτέρων ἀγωνιστῶν μυρίων ἐλθόντων ἔχομεν εἰπεῖν τίς ἂν νικῷ δικαίως;
Since these kinds of competitors and ten thousand others have come, can we say who would win justly?
ΚΛ. ἄτοπον ἤρου· τίς γὰρ ἂν ἀποκρίνοιτό σοι τοῦτο ὡς γνοὺς ἄν ποτε πρὶν ἀκοῦσαί τε, καὶ τῶν ἀθλητῶν ἑκάστων αὐτήκοος αὐτὸς γενέσθαι;
CL. You have asked an absurd question; for who could answer this for you as if he could ever know before hearing them, and becoming himself an eyewitness and hearer of each of the competitors?
ΑΘ. τί οὖν δή;
ATH. What indeed then?
βούλεσθε ἐγὼ σφῷν τὴν ἄτοπον ἀπόκρισιν ταύτην ἀποκρίνωμαι;
Do you wish that I should answer this absurd answer for the two of you?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Why not indeed?
ΑΘ. εἰ μὲν τοίνυν τὰ πάνυ σμικρὰ κρίνοι παιδία, κρινοῦσιν τὸν τὰ θαύματα ἐπιδεικνύντα· ἦ γάρ;
ATH. If, then, very small children were to judge, they will judge the one who exhibits puppet-shows; is it not so?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CL. For how could they not?
ΑΘ. ἐὰν δέ γʼ οἱ μείζους παῖδες, τὸν τὰς κωμῳδίας· τραγῳδίαν δὲ αἵ τε πεπαιδευμέναι τῶν γυναικῶν καὶ τὰ νέα μειράκια καὶ σχεδὸν ἴσως τὸ πλῆθος πάντων.
ATH. But if indeed the older boys, the one who exhibits comedies; and tragedy would be the choice of the educated women and the young youths, and perhaps indeed almost the majority of all.
ΚΛ. ἴσως δῆτα.
CL. Perhaps indeed.
ΑΘ. ῥαψῳδὸν δέ, καλῶς Ἰλιάδα καὶ Ὀδύσσειαν ἤ τι τῶν Ἡσιοδείων διατιθέντα, τάχʼ ἂν ἡμεῖς οἱ γέροντες ἥδιστα ἀκούσαντες νικᾶν ἂν φαῖμεν πάμπολυ.
ATH. But as for a rhapsodist, who beautifully presents the Iliad and Odyssey or something of Hesiod's works, perhaps we old men, having listened with the greatest pleasure, would say that he wins by far.
τίς οὖν ὀρθῶς ἂν νενικηκὼς εἴη;
Who then indeed would have won correctly?
τοῦτο μετὰ τοῦτο· ἦ γάρ;
This is the next question after that; is it not so?
ΚΛ. ναί.
CL. Yes.
ΑΘ. δῆλον ὡς ἔμοιγε καὶ ὑμῖν ἀναγκαῖόν ἐστιν φάναι τοὺς ὑπὸ τῶν ἡμετέρων ἡλικιωτῶν κριθέντας ὀρθῶς ἂν νικᾶν.
ATH. Clearly it is necessary for me and for you to say that those judged by our age-mates would win correctly.
τὸ γὰρ ἔθος ἡμῖν τῶν νῦν δὴ πάμπολυ δοκεῖ τῶν ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν ἁπάσαις καὶ πανταχοῦ βέλτιστον γίγνεσθαι.
For our habit seems to us to be by far the best of those now found in all cities and everywhere.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Of course.
§2.659ΑΘ. συγχωρῶ δὴ τό γε τοσοῦτον καὶ ἐγὼ τοῖς πολλοῖς, δεῖν τὴν μουσικὴν ἡδονῇ κρίνεσθαι, μὴ μέντοι τῶν γε ἐπιτυχόντων, ἀλλὰ σχεδὸν ἐκείνην εἶναι Μοῦσαν καλλίστην ἥτις τοὺς βελτίστους καὶ ἱκανῶς πεπαιδευμένους τέρπει, μάλιστα δὲ ἥτις ἕνα τὸν ἀρετῇ τε καὶ παιδείᾳ διαφέροντα·
ATH. Indeed, I too concede this much to the multitude, that music must be judged by pleasure, not however by that of any chance person, but that that Muse is nearly the most beautiful which pleases the best and sufficiently educated people, and especially that which pleases the one who excels in virtue and education.
διὰ ταῦτα δὲ ἀρετῆς φαμεν δεῖσθαι τοὺς τούτων κριτάς, ὅτι τῆς τε ἄλλης μετόχους αὐτοὺς εἶναι δεῖ φρονήσεως καὶ δὴ καὶ τῆς ἀνδρείας.
For this reason we say that the judges of these things stand in need of virtue, because they must be partakers of other wisdom and indeed also of courage.
οὔτε γὰρ παρὰ θεάτρου δεῖ τόν γε ἀληθῆ κριτὴν κρίνειν μανθάνοντα, καὶ ἐκπληττόμενον ὑπὸ θορύβου τῶν πολλῶν καὶ τῆς αὑτοῦ ἀπαιδευσίας, οὔτʼ αὖ γιγνώσκοντα διʼ ἀνανδρίαν καὶ δειλίαν ἐκ ταὐτοῦ στόματος οὗπερ τοὺς θεοὺς ἐπεκαλέσατο μέλλων κρίνειν, ἐκ τούτου ψευδόμενον ἀποφαίνεσθαι ῥᾳθύμως τὴν κρίσιν·
For the true judge must not learn his judgment from the audience, being struck with panic by the clamor of the multitude and his own lack of education, nor on the other hand, knowing the truth, should he, through unmanliness and cowardice, from the very same mouth with which he invoked the gods when about to judge, utter a lie from this mouth and declare his judgment in a slipshod manner.
οὐ γὰρ μαθητὴς ἀλλὰ διδάσκαλος, ὥς γε τὸ δίκαιον, θεατῶν μᾶλλον ὁ κριτὴς καθίζει, καὶ ἐναντιωσόμενος τοῖς τὴν ἡδονὴν μὴ προσηκόντως μηδὲ ὀρθῶς ἀποδιδοῦσι θεαταῖς.
For the judge sits, in accordance with what is right, not as a disciple but rather as a teacher of the spectators, and as one who will oppose those spectators who do not offer their pleasure properly nor correctly.
ἐξῆν γὰρ δὴ τῷ παλαιῷ τε καὶ Ἑλληνικῷ νόμῳ, οὐ καθάπερ ὁ Σικελικός τε καὶ Ἰταλικὸς νόμος νῦν, τῷ πλήθει τῶν θεατῶν ἐπιτρέπων καὶ τὸν νικῶντα διακρίνων χειροτονίαις, διέφθαρκε μὲν τοὺς ποιητὰς αὐτούς —πρὸς γὰρ τὴν τῶν κριτῶν ἡδονὴν ποιοῦσιν οὖσαν φαύλην, ὥστε αὐτοὶ αὐτοὺς οἱ θεαταὶ παιδεύουσιν—διέφθαρκεν δʼ αὐτοῦ τοῦ θεάτρου τὰς ἡδονάς·
For it was indeed permitted by the ancient and Greek law, not like the Sicilian and Italian law now, which, by committing the decision to the multitude of spectators and determining the winner by show of hands, has corrupted the poets themselves —for they compose to suit the pleasure of the judges, which is poor, so that the spectators themselves educate themselves—and has corrupted the pleasures of the audience itself.
δέον γὰρ αὐτοὺς ἀεὶ βελτίω τῶν αὑτῶν ἠθῶν ἀκούοντας βελτίω τὴν ἡδονὴν ἴσχειν, νῦν αὐτοῖς δρῶσιν πᾶν τοὐναντίον συμβαίνει.
For while it is necessary for them, by always listening to things better than their own characters, to have a better pleasure, now the very opposite happens to them in what they do.
τί ποτʼ οὖν ἡμῖν τὰ νῦν αὖ διαπερανθέντα τῷ λόγῳ σημαίνειν βούλεται;
What then indeed does the matter now again concluded by our discourse wish to signify to us?
σκοπεῖσθʼ εἰ τόδε.
Consider if it is this.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
CL. What kind of thing?
ΑΘ. δοκεῖ μοι τρίτον ἢ τέταρτον ὁ λόγος εἰς ταὐτὸν περιφερόμενος ἥκειν, ὡς ἄρα παιδεία μέν ἐσθʼ ἡ παίδων ὁλκή τε καὶ ἀγωγὴ πρὸς τὸν ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου λόγον ὀρθὸν εἰρημένον, καὶ τοῖς ἐπιεικεστάτοις καὶ πρεσβυτάτοις διʼ ἐμπειρίαν συνδεδογμένον ὡς ὄντως ὀρθός ἐστιν·
ATH. It seems to me that the discourse, turning around, has come to the same point for the third or fourth time, namely that education is the drawing and leading of children toward the correct reason expressed by the law, and agreed upon by the most decent and oldest men through experience as being truly correct.
ἵνʼ οὖν ἡ ψυχὴ τοῦ παιδὸς μὴ ἐναντία χαίρειν καὶ λυπεῖσθαι ἐθίζηται τῷ νόμῳ καὶ τοῖς ὑπὸ τοῦ νόμου πεπεισμένοις, ἀλλὰ συνέπηται χαίρουσά τε καὶ λυπουμένη τοῖς αὐτοῖς τούτοις οἷσπερ ὁ γέρων, τούτων ἕνεκα, ἃς ᾠδὰς καλοῦμεν, ὄντως μὲν ἐπῳδαὶ ταῖς ψυχαῖς αὗται νῦν γεγονέναι, πρὸς τὴν τοιαύτην ἣν λέγομεν συμφωνίαν ἐσπουδασμέναι, διὰ δὲ τὸ σπουδὴν μὴ δύνασθαι φέρειν τὰς τῶν νέων ψυχάς, παιδιαί τε καὶ ᾠδαὶ καλεῖσθαι καὶ πράττεσθαι,
In order then that the soul of the child may not be accustomed to rejoice and grieve in opposition to the law and to those persuaded by the law, but may follow, rejoicing and grieving at these very same things as the old man, for the sake of these things, what we call songs (ōdai) have in reality now become incantations (epōdai) for the souls, being earnestly designed for such harmony as we are speaking of; but because the souls of the young are unable to bear seriousness, they are called play (paidiai) and songs, and are practiced as such.