§2.656ΑΘ. οἷς δʼ ἂν τὰ μὲν τῆς φύσεως ὀρθὰ συμβαίνῃ, τὰ δὲ τῆς συνηθείας ἐναντία, ἢ τὰ μὲν τῆς συνηθείας ὀρθά, τὰ δὲ τῆς φύσεως ἐναντία, οὗτοι δὲ ταῖς ἡδοναῖς τοὺς ἐπαίνους ἐναντίους προσαγορεύουσιν·
ATH. But those for whom it happens that the things of nature are correct, while those of habit are contrary, or the things of habit are correct, while those of nature are contrary, these people pronounce their praises contrary to their pleasures.
ἡδέα γὰρ τούτων ἕκαστα εἶναί φασι, πονηρὰ δέ, καὶ ἐναντίον ἄλλων οὓς οἴονται φρονεῖν αἰσχύνονται μὲν κινεῖσθαι τῷ σώματι τὰ τοιαῦτα, αἰσχύνονται δὲ ᾄδειν ὡς ἀποφαινόμενοι καλὰ μετὰ σπουδῆς, χαίρουσιν δὲ παρʼ αὑτοῖς.
For they say that each of these things is pleasant, but wicked, and in the presence of others whom they think to be wise, they are ashamed to move their bodies in such a way, and they are ashamed to sing as if declaring them to be beautiful with serious intent, but they rejoice within themselves.
ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις.
CL. You speak most correctly.
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν τι βλάβην ἔσθʼ ἥντινα φέρει τῷ χαίροντι πονηρίας ἢ σχήμασιν ἢ μέλεσιν, ἤ τινʼ ὠφελίαν αὖ τοῖς πρὸς τἀναντία τὰς ἡδονὰς ἀποδεχομένοις;
ATH. Does it then bring any harm indeed to the one who rejoices in wickedness, whether of postures or of melodies, or on the other hand, some benefit to those who accept pleasures in contrary things?
ΚΛ. εἰκός γε.
CL. It is likely indeed.
ΑΘ. πότερον εἰκὸς ἢ καὶ ἀναγκαῖον ταὐτὸν εἶναι ὅπερ ὅταν τις πονηροῖς ἤθεσιν συνὼν κακῶν ἀνθρώπων μὴ μισῇ, χαίρῃ δὲ ἀποδεχόμενος, ψέγῃ δὲ ὡς ἐν παιδιᾶς μοίρᾳ, ὀνειρώττων αὐτοῦ τὴν μοχθηρίαν;
ATH. Is it merely likely, or is it also necessary that the very same thing happens as when someone, associating with the wicked characters of bad people, does not hate but rather rejoices in and accepts them, and reproaches them only as if in a spirit of play, dreaming of his own wickedness?
τότε ὁμοιοῦσθαι δήπου ἀνάγκη τὸν χαίροντα ὁποτέροις ἂν χαίρῃ, ἐὰν ἄρα καὶ ἐπαινεῖν αἰσχύνηται· καίτοι τοῦ τοιούτου τί μεῖζον ἀγαθὸν ἢ κακὸν φαῖμεν ἂν ἡμῖν ἐκ πάσης ἀνάγκης γίγνεσθαι;
In that case, it is surely necessary for the one who rejoices to become like whichever of the two he rejoices in, even if indeed he is ashamed to praise them; and yet, what greater good or evil could we say comes to us of absolute necessity than such a thing?
ΚΛ. δοκῶ μὲν οὐδέν.
CL. I think none.
ΑΘ. ὅπου δὴ νόμοι καλῶς εἰσι κείμενοι ἢ καὶ εἰς τὸν ἔπειτα χρόνον ἔσονται τὴν περὶ τὰς μούσας παιδείαν τε καὶ παιδιάν, οἰόμεθα ἐξέσεσθαι τοῖς ποιητικοῖς, ὅτιπερ ἂν αὐτὸν τὸν ποιητὴν ἐν τῇ ποιήσει τέρπῃ ῥυθμοῦ ἢ μέλους ἢ ῥήματος ἐχόμενον, τοῦτο διδάσκοντα καὶ τοὺς τῶν εὐνόμων παῖδας καὶ νέους ἐν τοῖς χοροῖς, ὅτι ἂν τύχῃ ἀπεργάζεσθαι πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἢ μοχθηρίαν;
ATH. Where laws are beautifully laid down, or will be in the time to come, concerning education and play in connection with the Muses, do we think it will be permitted to the poets to teach the children and youth of well-governed citizens in the choruses whatever, in their compositions, pleases the poet himself as he clings to rhythm or melody or words, and whatever it happens to produce, whether towards virtue or wickedness?
ΚΛ. οὔτοι δὴ τοῦτό γε λόγον ἔχει· πῶς γὰρ ἄν;
CL. Indeed this is not at all reasonable; for how could it be?
ΑΘ. νῦν δέ γε αὐτὸ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἐν πάσαις ταῖς πόλεσιν ἔξεστι δρᾶν, πλὴν κατʼ Αἴγυπτον.
ATH. Yet now, so to speak, it is permitted to do this in almost all cities, except in Egypt.
ΚΛ. ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ δὲ δὴ πῶς τὸ τοιοῦτον φῂς νενομοθετῆσθαι;
CL. But in Egypt indeed, how do you say such a thing has been legislated?
ΑΘ. θαῦμα καὶ ἀκοῦσαι.
ATH. It is a wonder even to hear of.
πάλαι γὰρ δή ποτε, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἐγνώσθη παρʼ αὐτοῖς οὗτος ὁ λόγος ὃν τὰ νῦν λέγομεν ἡμεῖς, ὅτι καλὰ μὲν σχήματα, καλὰ δὲ μέλη δεῖ μεταχειρίζεσθαι ταῖς συνηθείαις τοὺς ἐν ταῖς πόλεσιν νέους·
For long ago indeed, as it seems, this principle which we are now speaking of was recognized among them: that the youth in the cities must practice beautiful postures and beautiful melodies in their habits.
ταξάμενοι δὲ ταῦτα, ἅττα ἐστὶ καὶ ὁποῖʼ ἄττα ἀπέφηναν ἐν τοῖς ἱεροῖς, καὶ παρὰ ταῦτʼ οὐκ ἐξῆν οὔτε ζωγράφοις, οὔτʼ ἄλλοις ὅσοι σχήματα καὶ ὁποῖʼ ἄττα ἀπεργάζονται, καινοτομεῖν οὐδʼ ἐπινοεῖν ἄλλʼ ἄττα ἢ τὰ πάτρια, οὐδὲ νῦν ἔξεστιν, οὔτε ἐν τούτοις οὔτε ἐν μουσικῇ συμπάσῃ.
Having established these, whatever they are and of what kind they are, they exhibited them in the temples; and contrary to these, it was not permitted either to painters or to others who produce postures and things of that kind, to introduce innovations or to devise anything else than what is ancestral, nor is it permitted even now, either in these fields or in music as a whole.
§2.657ΑΘ. σκοπῶν δὲ εὑρήσεις αὐτόθι τὰ μυριοστὸν ἔτος γεγραμμένα ἢ τετυπωμένα—οὐχ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν μυριοστὸν ἀλλʼ ὄντως—τῶν νῦν δεδημιουργημένων οὔτε τι καλλίονα οὔτʼ αἰσχίω, τὴν αὐτὴν δὲ τέχνην ἀπειργασμένα.
ATH. And if you look, you will find that what was written or fashioned there ten thousand years ago—not ten thousand years, so to speak, but really—is neither more beautiful nor uglier than what is produced now, but has been crafted with the same art.
ΚΛ. θαυμαστὸν λέγεις.
CL. You speak of a wondrous thing.
ΑΘ. νομοθετικὸν μὲν οὖν καὶ πολιτικὸν ὑπερβαλλόντως. ἀλλʼ ἕτερα φαῦλʼ ἂν εὕροις αὐτόθι·
ATH. Rather, it is exceedingly legislative and statesmanlike.
τοῦτο δʼ οὖν τὸ περὶ μουσικὴν ἀληθές τε καὶ ἄξιον ἐννοίας, ὅτι δυνατὸν ἄρʼ ἦν περὶ τῶν τοιούτων νομοθετεῖσθαι βεβαίως θαρροῦντα μέλη τὰ τὴν ὀρθότητα φύσει παρεχόμενα.
But you would find other poor things there; yet this point, at any rate, concerning music is true and worthy of consideration: that it was indeed possible to legislate securely concerning such matters, trusting in those melodies which naturally provide correctness.
τοῦτο δὲ θεοῦ ἢ θείου τινὸς ἀνδρὸς ἂν εἴη, καθάπερ ἐκεῖ φασιν τὰ τὸν πολὺν τοῦτον σεσωμένα χρόνον μέλη τῆς Ἴσιδος ποιήματα γεγονέναι.
This would be the work of a god or of some divine man, just as they say there that the melodies preserved for this vast time were the compositions of Isis.
ὥσθʼ, ὅπερ ἔλεγον, εἰ δύναιτό τις ἑλεῖν αὐτῶν καὶ ὁπωσοῦν τὴν ὀρθότητα, θαρροῦντα χρὴ εἰς νόμον ἄγειν καὶ τάξιν αὐτά· ὡς ἡ τῆς ἡδονῆς καὶ λύπης ζήτησις τοῦ καινῇ ζητεῖν ἀεὶ μουσικῇ χρῆσθαι σχεδὸν οὐ μεγάλην τινὰ δύναμιν ἔχει πρὸς τὸ διαφθεῖραι τὴν καθιερωθεῖσαν χορείαν ἐπικαλοῦσα ἀρχαιότητα.
So, as I was saying, if someone could grasp their correctness in any way at all, one must with confidence bring them into law and order; for the pursuit of pleasure and pain, that is, of always seeking to use novel music, has almost great power to ruin the consecrated choral dance by accusing antiquity.
τὴν γοῦν ἐκεῖ οὐδαμῶς ἔοικε δυνατὴ γεγονέναι διαφθεῖραι, πᾶν δὲ τοὐναντίον.
At least, it seems it was by no means able to ruin the choral dance there, but rather the very opposite.
ΚΛ. φαίνεται οὕτως ἂν ταῦτα ἔχειν ἐκ τῶν ὑπὸ σοῦ τὰ νῦν λεχθέντων.
CL. It appears that these things would be so from what has now been said by you.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν θαρροῦντες λέγομεν τὴν τῇ μουσικῇ καὶ τῇ παιδιᾷ μετὰ χορείας χρείαν ὀρθὴν εἶναι τοιῷδέ τινι τρόπῳ;
ATH. Shall we then with confidence say that the correct use of music and play with choral dance is in some such way as this?
χαίρομεν ὅταν οἰώμεθα εὖ πράττειν, καὶ ὁπόταν χαίρωμεν, οἰόμεθα εὖ πράττειν αὖ;
We rejoice when we think we are doing well, and whenever we rejoice, do we think on the other hand that we are doing well?
μῶν οὐχ οὕτως;
Is it not so?
ΚΛ. οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
CL. Quite so.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν ἔν γε τῷ τοιούτῳ, χαίροντες, ἡσυχίαν οὐ δυνάμεθα ἄγειν.
ATH. Moreover, in such a state, when we rejoice, we are unable to keep quiet.
ΚΛ. ἔστι ταῦτα.
CL. That is so.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν οὐχ ἡμῶν οἱ μὲν νέοι αὐτοὶ χορεύειν ἕτοιμοι, τὸ δὲ τῶν πρεσβυτέρων ἡμῶν ἐκείνους αὖ θεωροῦντες διάγειν ἡγούμεθα πρεπόντως, χαίροντες τῇ ἐκείνων παιδιᾷ τε καὶ ἑορτάσει, ἐπειδὴ τὸ παρʼ ἡμῖν ἡμᾶς ἐλαφρὸν ἐκλείπει νῦν, ὃ ποθοῦντες καὶ ἀσπαζόμενοι τίθεμεν οὕτως ἀγῶνας τοῖς δυναμένοις ἡμᾶς ὅτι μάλιστʼ εἰς τὴν νεότητα μνήμῃ ἐπεγείρειν;
ATH. Is it not then the case that those of us who are young are ready to dance themselves, while we who are older think it is fitting to pass our time by viewing them, rejoicing in their play and festivity, since the lightness in us is now leaving us, which we, longing for and welcoming, establish contests in this way for those who are able to awaken us as much as possible to youth through memory?
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα.
CL. Most true.
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οἰόμεθα καὶ κομιδῇ μάτην τὸν νῦν λεγόμενον λόγον περὶ τῶν ἑορταζόντων λέγειν τοὺς πολλούς, ὅτι τοῦτον δεῖ σοφώτατον ἡγεῖσθαι καὶ κρίνειν νικᾶν, ὃς ἂν ἡμᾶς εὐφραίνεσθαι καὶ χαίρειν ὅτι μάλιστα ἀπεργάζηται;
ATH. Do we then think that the multitude speaks entirely in vain in the discourse now being held about those who keep festival, saying that he must be considered the wisest and judged to be the winner who makes us enjoy ourselves and rejoice as much as possible?
δεῖ γὰρ δή, ἐπείπερ ἀφείμεθά γε παίζειν ἐν τοῖς τοιούτοις, τὸν πλείστους καὶ μάλιστα χαίρειν ποιοῦντα, τοῦτον μάλιστα τιμᾶσθαί τε, καὶ ὅπερ εἶπον νυνδή, τὰ νικητήρια φέρειν.
For since we are dismissed to play on such occasions, the one who makes the greatest number of people rejoice the most must indeed be honored the most and, as I said just now, carry off the prize of victory.