§2.654ΑΘ. τὰ μὲν οὖν ἄλλα ζῷα οὐκ ἔχειν αἴσθησιν τῶν ἐν ταῖς κινήσεσιν τάξεων οὐδὲ ἀταξιῶν, οἷς δὴ ῥυθμὸς ὄνομα καὶ ἁρμονία· ἡμῖν δὲ οὓς εἴπομεν τοὺς θεοὺς συγχορευτὰς δεδόσθαι, τούτους εἶναι καὶ τοὺς δεδωκότας τὴν ἔνρυθμόν τε καὶ ἐναρμόνιον αἴσθησιν μεθʼ ἡδονῆς, ᾗ δὴ κινεῖν τε ἡμᾶς καὶ χορηγεῖν ἡμῶν τούτους, ᾠδαῖς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεσιν ἀλλήλοις συνείροντας, χορούς τε ὠνομακέναι παρὰ τὸ τῆς χαρᾶς ἔμφυτον ὄνομα.
ATH. Therefore, the other creatures do not have a perception of order or disorder in their movements, which indeed are named rhythm and harmony; but to us, those gods whom we said were given as fellow-celebrants, these are the very ones who have given us the perception of rhythm and harmony with pleasure, by which indeed they move us and lead our dances, linking us together with songs and dances, and they have named them choruses from the natural name of joy.
πρῶτον δὴ τοῦτο ἀποδεξώμεθα;
Shall we first accept this?
θῶμεν παιδείαν εἶναι πρώτην διὰ Μουσῶν τε καὶ Ἀπόλλωνος, ἢ πῶς;
Shall we lay down that the first education is through the Muses and Apollo, or how?
ΚΛ. οὕτως.
CL. Thus.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ὁ μὲν ἀπαίδευτος ἀχόρευτος ἡμῖν ἔσται, τὸν δὲ πεπαιδευμένον ἱκανῶς κεχορευκότα θετέον;
ATH. Will the uneducated person, then, be for us unversed in the dance, while the educated one must be set down as having danced sufficiently?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
CL. Of course.
ΑΘ. χορεία γε μὴν ὄρχησίς τε καὶ ᾠδὴ τὸ σύνολόν ἐστιν.
ATH. Moreover, choral dance as a whole is dance and song.
ΚΛ. ἀναγκαῖον.
CL. Necessarily.
ΑΘ. ὁ καλῶς ἄρα πεπαιδευμένος ᾄδειν τε καὶ ὀρχεῖσθαι δυνατὸς ἂν εἴη καλῶς.
ATH. The well-educated person, then, would be able to sing and dance well.
ΚΛ. ἔοικεν.
CL. So it seems.
ΑΘ. ἴδωμεν δὴ τί ποτʼ ἐστὶ τὸ νῦν αὖ λεγόμενον.
ATH. Let us see, then, what on earth is the meaning of what is now being said.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον δή;
CL. What kind of thing?
ΑΘ.
καλῶς ᾄδει,
φαμέν,
καὶ καλῶς ὀρχεῖται
· πότερον
εἰ καὶ καλὰ ᾄδει καὶ καλὰ ὀρχεῖται
προσθῶμεν ἢ μή;
ATH. "He sings well," we say, "and dances well." Should we add, "if indeed he sings beautiful things and dances beautiful things," or not?
ΚΛ. προσθῶμεν.
CL. Let us add it.
ΑΘ. τί δʼ ἂν τὰ καλά τε ἡγούμενος εἶναι καλὰ καὶ τὰ αἰσχρὰ αἰσχρὰ οὕτως αὐτοῖς χρῆται;
ATH. What if a person, holding beautiful things to be beautiful and ugly things to be ugly, uses them accordingly?
βέλτιον ὁ τοιοῦτος πεπαιδευμένος ἡμῖν ἔσται τὴν χορείαν τε καὶ μουσικὴν ἢ ὃς ἂν τῷ μὲν σώματι καὶ τῇ φωνῇ τὸ διανοηθὲν εἶναι καλὸν ἱκανῶς ὑπηρετεῖν δυνηθῇ ἑκάστοτε, χαίρῃ δὲ μὴ τοῖς καλοῖς μηδὲ μισῇ τὰ μὴ καλά;
Will such a person be better educated for us in choral dance and music than one who is able on each occasion to sufficiently serve with his body and voice what he thinks is beautiful, but does not rejoice in beautiful things nor hate those that are not beautiful?
ἢ ʼκεῖνος ὃς ἂν τῇ μὲν φωνῇ καὶ τῷ σώματι μὴ πάνυ δυνατὸς ᾖ κατορθοῦν, ἢ διανοεῖσθαι, τῇ δὲ ἡδονῇ καὶ λύπῃ κατορθοῖ, τὰ μὲν ἀσπαζόμενος, ὅσα καλά, τὰ δὲ δυσχεραίνων, ὁπόσα μὴ καλά;
Or is it rather that other person who, although in voice and body he is not entirely able to succeed, or even to conceive them, yet succeeds in pleasure and pain, welcoming all things that are beautiful and being displeased by all those that are not beautiful?
ΚΛ. πολὺ τὸ διαφέρον, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις τῆς παιδείας.
CL. You speak of a great difference in education, stranger.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν τὸ καλὸν ᾠδῆς τε καὶ ὀρχήσεως πέρι γιγνώσκομεν τρεῖς ὄντες, ἴσμεν καὶ τὸν πεπαιδευμένον τε καὶ ἀπαίδευτον ὀρθῶς· εἰ δὲ ἀγνοοῦμέν γε τοῦτο, οὐδʼ εἴ τις παιδείας ἐστὶν φυλακὴ καὶ ὅπου διαγιγνώσκειν ἄν ποτε δυναίμεθα.
ATH. Therefore, if we three know what is beautiful concerning song and dance, we also know correctly both the educated and the uneducated person; but if we are ignorant of this, we could never discern whether there is any safeguard of education and where it is.
ἆρʼ οὐχ οὕτως;
Is it not so?
ΚΛ. οὕτω μὲν οὖν.
CL. Quite so.
ΑΘ. ταῦτʼ ἄρα μετὰ τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν αὖ καθάπερ κυσὶν ἰχνευούσαις διερευνητέον, σχῆμά τε καλὸν καὶ μέλος καὶ ᾠδὴν καὶ ὄρχησιν· εἰ δὲ ταῦθʼ ἡμᾶς διαφυγόντα οἰχήσεται, μάταιος ὁ μετὰ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν περὶ παιδείας ὀρθῆς εἴθʼ Ἑλληνικῆς εἴτε βαρβαρικῆς λόγος ἂν εἴη.
ATH. Therefore, after this, we must investigate, like tracking hounds, beautiful posture, melody, song, and dance; but if these elude us and escape, our subsequent discourse about correct education, whether Greek or barbarian, would be in vain.
ΚΛ. ναί.
CL. Yes.
§2.655ΑΘ. εἶεν·
ATH.
τί δὲ δὴ τὸ καλὸν χρὴ φάναι σχῆμα ἢ μέλος εἶναί ποτε;
Well then; what on earth should one say is a beautiful posture or melody?
φέρε, ἀνδρικῆς ψυχῆς ἐν πόνοις ἐχομένης καὶ δειλῆς ἐν τοῖς αὐτοῖς τε καὶ ἴσοις ἆρʼ ὅμοια τά τε σχήματα καὶ τὰ φθέγματα συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι;
Come, do the postures and utterances of a courageous soul held in labors, and of a cowardly soul in the very same and equal circumstances, turn out to be similar?
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς, ὅτε γε μηδὲ τὰ χρώματα;
CL. How could they, since not even their complexions are?
ΑΘ. καλῶς γε, ὦ ἑταῖρε.
ATH. Well said, my friend.
ἀλλʼ ἐν γὰρ μουσικῇ καὶ σχήματα μὲν καὶ μέλη ἔνεστιν, περὶ ῥυθμὸν καὶ ἁρμονίαν οὔσης τῆς μουσικῆς, ὥστε εὔρυθμον μὲν καὶ εὐάρμοστον, εὔχρων δὲ μέλος ἢ σχῆμα οὐκ ἔστιν ἀπεικάσαντα, ὥσπερ οἱ χοροδιδάσκαλοι ἀπεικάζουσιν, ὀρθῶς φθέγγεσθαι· τὸ δὲ τοῦ δειλοῦ τε καὶ ἀνδρείου σχῆμα ἢ μέλος ἔστιν τε, καὶ ὀρθῶς προσαγορεύειν ἔχει τὰ μὲν τῶν ἀνδρείων καλά, τὰ τῶν δειλῶν δὲ αἰσχρά.
But indeed, in music there are both postures and melodies, since music is concerned with rhythm and harmony, so that one can speak correctly of a "well-rhythmed" or "well-harmonized" melody or posture, but it is not possible to speak correctly by comparing it to "well-colored," as the choir-masters compare them; but the posture or melody of the coward and the brave person does exist, and one can correctly call those of the brave beautiful, and those of the cowards ugly.
καὶ ἵνα δὴ μὴ μακρολογία πολλή τις γίγνηται περὶ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν ἅπαντα, ἁπλῶς ἔστω τὰ μὲν ἀρετῆς ἐχόμενα ψυχῆς ἢ σώματος, εἴτε αὐτῆς εἴτε τινὸς εἰκόνος, σύμπαντα σχήματά τε καὶ μέλη καλά, τὰ δὲ κακίας αὖ, τοὐναντίον ἅπαν.
And so that we do not have a great deal of long talk about all these things, let it simply be that all postures and melodies associated with the virtue of the soul or body, whether of itself or of some image of it, are beautiful, while those of vice, on the contrary, are entirely the opposite.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς τε προκαλῇ καὶ ταῦθʼ ἡμῖν οὕτως ἔχειν ἀποκεκρίσθω τὰ νῦν.
CL. You propose correctly, and let this be answered as being so for us at present.
ΑΘ. ἔτι δὴ τόδε·
ATH.
πότερον ἅπαντες πάσαις χορείαις ὁμοίως χαίρομεν, ἢ πολλοῦ δεῖ;
Further, this point: do we all rejoice in all choral dances equally, or is it far from being so?
ΚΛ. τοῦ παντὸς μὲν οὖν.
CL. Far from it indeed.
ΑΘ. τί ποτʼ ἂν οὖν λέγομεν τὸ πεπλανηκὸς ἡμᾶς εἶναι; πότερον οὐ ταὐτά ἐστι καλὰ ἡμῖν πᾶσιν, ἢ τὰ μὲν αὐτά, ἀλλʼ οὐ δοκεῖ ταὐτὰ εἶναι;
ATH. What then shall we say is the thing that has misled us? Is it that the same things are not beautiful for all of us, or are they the same but do not seem to be the same?
οὐ γάρ που ἐρεῖ γέ τις ὥς ποτε τὰ τῆς κακίας ἢ ἀρετῆς καλλίονα χορεύματα, οὐδʼ ὡς αὐτὸς μὲν χαίρει τοῖς τῆς μοχθηρίας σχήμασιν, οἱ δʼ ἄλλοι ἐναντίᾳ ταύτης Μούσῃ τινί· καίτοι λέγουσίν γε οἱ πλεῖστοι μουσικῆς ὀρθότητα εἶναι τὴν ἡδονὴν ταῖς ψυχαῖς πορίζουσαν δύναμιν.
For surely no one will say that the dances of vice are ever more beautiful than those of virtue, nor that he himself rejoices in the postures of wickedness, while others rejoice in some Muse contrary to this; and yet most people say that the correctness of music is its power to provide pleasure to souls.
ἀλλὰ τοῦτο μὲν οὔτε ἀνεκτὸν οὔτε ὅσιον τὸ παράπαν φθέγγεσθαι, τόδε δὲ μᾶλλον εἰκὸς πλανᾶν ἡμᾶς.
But this is neither tolerable nor holy to utter at all, and the following is more likely to mislead us.
ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον;
CL. What kind of thing?
ΑΘ. ἐπειδὴ μιμήματα τρόπων ἐστὶ τὰ περὶ τὰς χορείας, ἐν πράξεσί τε παντοδαπαῖς γιγνόμενα καὶ τύχαις, καὶ ἤθεσι καὶ μιμήσεσι διεξιόντων ἑκάστων, οἷς μὲν ἂν πρὸς τρόπου τὰ ῥηθέντα ἢ μελῳδηθέντα ἢ καὶ ὁπωσοῦν χορευθέντα, ἢ κατὰ φύσιν ἢ κατὰ ἔθος ἢ κατʼ ἀμφότερα, τούτους μὲν καὶ τούτοις χαίρειν τε καὶ ἐπαινεῖν αὐτὰ καὶ προσαγορεύειν καλὰ ἀναγκαῖον, οἷς δʼ ἂν παρὰ φύσιν ἢ τρόπον ἤ τινα συνήθειαν, οὔτε χαίρειν δυνατὸν οὔτε ἐπαινεῖν αἰσχρά τε προσαγορεύειν.
ATH. Since choral dances are imitations of characters, occurring in all kinds of actions and fortunes, with each person going through them with different dispositions and imitations, those for whom the things spoken or sung or in any way danced are in accordance with their character, whether by nature or by habit or by both, these people must necessarily rejoice in them and praise them and call them beautiful; but those for whom they are contrary to nature or character or some custom, can neither rejoice in them nor praise them, but must call them ugly.