§12.966ΑΘ. μήπω τὸ πῶς ἂν μηχανησαίμεθα λέγωμεν· εἰ δεῖ δὲ ἢ μή, πρῶτον βεβαιωσώμεθα τῇ συνομολογίᾳ πρὸς ἡμᾶς αὐτούς.
ATH. Let us not yet say how we might contrive it; but whether it is necessary or not, let us first confirm by agreement among ourselves.
ΚΛ. ἀλλὰ μὴν δεῖ γε, εἴπερ δυνατόν.
CLE. But indeed it is necessary, if indeed it is possible.
ΑΘ. τί δὲ δή;
ATH. What then?
περὶ καλοῦ τε καὶ ἀγαθοῦ ταὐτὸν τοῦτο διανοούμεθα;
Do we think this same thing about the beautiful and the good?
ὡς πόλλʼ ἔστιν μόνον ἕκαστον τούτων τοὺς φύλακας ἡμῖν γνωστέον, ἢ καὶ ὅπως ἕν τε καὶ ὅπῃ;
That our guardians must know each of these only as being many, or also how they are one, and in what way?
ΚΛ. σχεδὸν ἔοικʼ ἐξ ἀνάγκης δεῖν καὶ ὅπως ἓν διανοεῖσθαι.
CLE. It seems almost of necessity that they must also think how they are one.
ΑΘ. τί δʼ, ἐννοεῖν μέν, τὴν δὲ ἔνδειξιν τῷ λόγῳ ἀδυνατεῖν ἐνδείκνυσθαι;
ATH. What then, if they understand it, but are unable to show the proof of it in speech?
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς;
CLE. How indeed?
ἀνδραπόδου γάρ τινα σὺ λέγεις ἕξιν.
For the state you are describing is like that of a slave.
ΑΘ. τί δέ;
ATH.
περὶ πάντων τῶν σπουδαίων ἆρʼ ἡμῖν αὑτὸς λόγος, ὅτι δεῖ τοὺς ὄντως φύλακας ἐσομένους τῶν νόμων ὄντως εἰδέναι τὰ περὶ τὴν ἀλήθειαν αὐτῶν, καὶ λόγῳ τε ἱκανοὺς ἑρμηνεύειν εἶναι καὶ τοῖς ἔργοις συνακολουθεῖν, κρίνοντας τά τε καλῶς γιγνόμενα καὶ τὰ μὴ κατὰ φύσιν;
And what of all serious matters? Is our argument the same, that those who are to be truly guardians of the laws must truly know the truth about them, and be able to interpret them in speech and follow them in deeds, judging what is done well and what is not according to nature?
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
CLE. How indeed could it be otherwise?
ΑΘ. μῶν οὖν οὐχ ἓν τῶν καλλίστων ἐστὶν τὸ περὶ τοὺς θεούς, ὃ δὴ σπουδῇ διεπερανάμεθα, ὡς εἰσίν τε καὶ ὅσης φαίνονται κύριοι δυνάμεως, εἰδέναι τε εἰς ὅσον δυνατόν ἐστιν ταῦτʼ ἄνθρωπον γιγνώσκειν, καὶ τοῖς μὲν πλείστοις τῶν κατὰ πόλιν συγγιγνώσκειν τῇ φήμῃ μόνον τῶν νόμων συνακολουθοῦσιν, τοῖς δὲ φυλακῆς μεθέξουσιν μηδὲ ἐπιτρέπειν, ὃς ἂν μὴ διαπονήσηται τὸ πᾶσαν πίστιν λαβεῖν τῶν οὐσῶν περὶ θεῶν; τὴν δὲ μὴ ἐπιτροπὴν εἶναι τὸ μηδέποτε τῶν νομοφυλάκων αἱρεῖσθαι τὸν μὴ θεῖον καὶ διαπεπονηκότα πρὸς αὐτά, μηδʼ αὖ τῶν πρὸς ἀρετὴν ἔγκριτον γίγνεσθαι;
ATH. Is not, then, one of the most beautiful things that which concerns the gods, which we indeed went through with great care—namely, that they exist and of how great a power they appear to be masters, and to know these things as far as it is possible for a human being to understand them? And while we may pardon the majority of those in the city who follow only the report of the laws, we must not permit those who are to participate in guardianship, whoever does not labor to acquire every conviction concerning the gods; and this non-permission means never to choose as a guardian of the laws anyone who is not divine and has not labored on these things, nor, on the other hand, to admit him among those approved for virtue.
ΚΛ. δίκαιον γοῦν, ὡς λέγεις, τὸν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀργὸν ἢ ἀδύνατον ἀποκρίνεσθαι πόρρω τῶν καλῶν.
CLE. It is indeed just, as you say, that anyone who is idle or unable in such matters should be excluded far from beautiful things.
ΑΘ. ἆρα οὖν ἴσμεν ὅτι δύʼ ἐστὸν τὼ περὶ θεῶν ἄγοντε εἰς πίστιν, ὅσα διήλθομεν ἐν τοῖς πρόσθεν;
ATH. Do we know, then, that there are two things that lead to belief concerning the gods, which we went through in what preceded?
ΚΛ. ποῖα;
CLE. What sort of things?
ΑΘ. ἓν μὲν ὃ περὶ τὴν ψυχὴν ἐλέγομεν, ὡς πρεσβύτατόν τε καὶ θειότατόν ἐστιν πάντων ὧν κίνησις γένεσιν παραλαβοῦσα ἀέναον οὐσίαν ἐπόρισεν· ἓν δὲ τὸ περὶ τὴν φοράν, ὡς ἔχει τάξεως, ἄστρων τε καὶ ὅσων ἄλλων ἐγκρατὴς νοῦς ἐστιν τὸ πᾶν διακεκοσμηκώς.
ATH. One is what we said about the soul, that it is the oldest and most divine of all things whose motion, having taken over generation, provided everlasting being; and the other is that concerning the motion, how it possesses order, of the stars and all other things of which the controlling intellect is master, having ordered the universe.
§12.967ΑΘ. ὁ γὰρ ἰδὼν ταῦτα μὴ φαύλως μηδʼ ἰδιωτικῶς, οὐδεὶς οὕτως ἄθεος ἀνθρώπων ποτὲ πέφυκεν, ὃς οὐ τοὐναντίον ἔπαθεν ἢ τὸ προσδοκώμενον ὑπὸ τῶν πολλῶν.
ATH. For anyone who has looked at these things not carelessly nor as an amateur—no human being has ever by nature been so godless that he did not experience the very opposite of what is expected by the many.
οἱ μὲν γὰρ διανοοῦνται τοὺς τὰ τοιαῦτα μεταχειρισαμένους ἀστρονομίᾳ τε καὶ ταῖς μετὰ ταύτης ἀναγκαίαις ἄλλαις τέχναις ἀθέους γίγνεσθαι, καθεωρακότας ὡς οἷόν τε γιγνόμενα ἀνάγκαις πράγματʼ ἀλλʼ οὐ διανοίαις βουλήσεως ἀγαθῶν πέρι τελουμένων.
For they think that those who handle such things by astronomy and the other necessary arts associated with it become godless, having observed that, as far as possible, things happen by necessities and not by plans of a will aiming at the accomplishment of good things.
ΚΛ. τὸ δὲ δὴ πῶς ἔχον ἂν εἴη;
CLE. How indeed would it actually be?
ΑΘ. πᾶν, ὅπερ εἶπον, τοὐναντίον ἔχει νῦν τε καὶ ὅτε ἄψυχα αὐτὰ οἱ διανοούμενοι διενοοῦντο.
ATH. It is entirely the opposite, as I said, both now and when those who thought of them as soulless did so.
θαύματα μὲν οὖν καὶ τότε ὑπεδύετο περὶ αὐτά, καὶ ὑπωπτεύετο τὸ νῦν ὄντως δεδογμένον, ὅσοι τῆς ἀκριβείας αὐτῶν ἥπτοντο, ὅπως μήποτʼ ἂν ἄψυχα ὄντα οὕτως εἰς ἀκρίβειαν θαυμαστοῖς λογισμοῖς ἂν ἐχρῆτο, νοῦν μὴ κεκτημένα·
Even then, wonders crept in concerning them, and what is now truly accepted was suspected by as many as touched upon their precision—how they, being soulless, could never have employed such precision with wonderful calculations if they did not possess intellect.
καί τινες ἐτόλμων τοῦτό γε αὐτὸ παρακινδυνεύειν καὶ τότε, λέγοντες ὡς νοῦς εἴη ὁ διακεκοσμηκὼς πάνθʼ ὅσα κατʼ οὐρανόν.
And some even dared to risk this very statement back then, saying that it was intellect that ordered all things in heaven.
οἱ δὲ αὐτοὶ πάλιν ἁμαρτάνοντες ψυχῆς φύσεως ὅτι πρεσβύτερον εἴη σωμάτων, διανοηθέντες δὲ ὡς νεώτερον, ἅπανθʼ ὡς εἰπεῖν ἔπος ἀνέτρεψαν πάλιν, ἑαυτοὺς δὲ πολὺ μᾶλλον·
But they in turn, erring about the nature of the soul, that it is older than bodies, and thinking of it as younger, turned everything upside down, so to speak, and themselves much more.
τὸ γὰρ δὴ πρὸ τῶν ὀμμάτων, πάντα αὐτοῖς ἐφάνη, τὰ κατʼ οὐρανὸν φερόμενα, μεστὰ εἶναι λίθων καὶ γῆς καὶ πολλῶν ἄλλων ἀψύχων σωμάτων διανεμόντων τὰς αἰτίας παντὸς τοῦ κόσμου.
For everything before their eyes—all things moving in heaven—appeared to them to be full of stones, earth, and many other soulless bodies, which distributed the causes of the whole universe.
ταῦτʼ ἦν τὰ τότε ἐξειργασμένα πολλὰς ἀθεότητας καὶ δυσχερείας τῶν τοιούτων ἅπτεσθαι, καὶ δὴ καὶ λοιδορήσεις γε ἐπῆλθον ποιηταῖς, τοὺς φιλοσοφοῦντας κυσὶ ματαίαις ἀπεικάζοντας χρωμέναισιν ὑλακαῖς, ἄλλα τε αὖ ἀνόητʼ εἰπεῖν·
These were the things that produced many godless views at that time and caused difficulties in dealing with such matters; and indeed, insults also came from poets, who compared philosophers to useless barking dogs, and said other foolish things.
νῦν δέ, ὅπερ εἴρηται, πᾶν τοὐναντίον ἔχει.
But now, as has been said, it is entirely the opposite.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CLE. How?
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἔστιν ποτὲ γενέσθαι βεβαίως θεοσεβῆ θνητῶν ἀνθρώπων οὐδένα, ὃς ἂν μὴ τὰ λεγόμενα ταῦτα νῦν δύο λάβῃ, ψυχή τε ὡς ἔστιν πρεσβύτατον ἁπάντων ὅσα γονῆς μετείληφεν, ἀθάνατόν τε, ἄρχει τε δὴ σωμάτων πάντων, ἐπὶ δὲ τούτοισι δή, τὸ νῦν εἰρημένον πολλάκις, τόν τε εἰρημένον ἐν τοῖς ἄστροις νοῦν τῶν ὄντων τά τε πρὸ τούτων ἀναγκαῖα μαθήματα λάβῃ, τά τε κατὰ τὴν μοῦσαν τούτοις τῆς κοινωνίας συνθεασάμενος, χρήσηται πρὸς τὰ τῶν ἠθῶν ἐπιτηδεύματα καὶ νόμιμα συναρμοττόντως, ὅσα τε λόγον ἔχει, τούτων δυνατὸς ᾖ δοῦναι τὸν λόγον·
ATH. No mortal man can ever become firmly godfearing unless he grasps these two things now mentioned—both that the soul is the oldest of all things that have shared in generation, and is immortal, and rules over all bodies—and, in addition to these, what has now been said many times: both grasping the intellect of beings that has been mentioned as existing in the stars, and the necessary studies prior to these, and, having beheld their communion in relation to the Muse, uses them harmoniously for habits of character and legal institutions, and is able to give an account of all those things that possess an account.