§12.964ΑΘ. ἧι μὲν τοίνυν ἐστὸν διαφόρω καὶ δύο, σὺ παρʼ ἐμοῦ ἀπείληφας τῷ λόγῳ· ᾗ δὲ ἓν καὶ ταὐτόν, σὺ πάλιν ἀπόδος ἐμοί.
ATH. So, in what way they are different and two, you have received from me in the argument; but in what way they are one and the same, you in turn give back to me.
διανοοῦ δὲ ὡς ἐρῶν καὶ ὅπῃ τέτταρα ὄντα ἕν ἐστι, καὶ ἐμὲ δὲ ἀξίου, σοῦ δείξαντος ὡς ἕν, πάλιν ὅπῃ τέτταρα.
And consider that you will state also how, though being four, they are one; and demand of me too, once you have shown how they are one, to show in turn how they are four.
καὶ δὴ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο σκοπῶμεν τὸν εἰδότα ἱκανῶς περὶ ὡντινωνοῦν οἷς ἔστιν μὲν ὄνομα, ἔστιν δὲ αὖ καὶ λόγος, πότερον μόνον ἐπίστασθαι τοὔνομα χρεών, τὸν δὲ λόγον ἀγνοεῖν, ἢ τόν γε ὄντα τι καὶ περὶ τῶν διαφερόντων μεγέθει τε καὶ κάλλει πάντα τὰ τοιαῦτα ἀγνοεῖν αἰσχρόν.
And indeed, next let us consider, concerning anyone who knows adequately about any things whatsoever that have both a name and a definition, whether it is necessary for him to know only the name and be ignorant of the definition, or rather, for one who is of some worth, and concerning things that excel in magnitude and beauty, it is shameful to be ignorant of all such things.
ΚΛ. ἔοικεν γοῦν.
CLE. It certainly seems so.
ΑΘ. μεῖζον δή τι νομοθέτῃ τε καὶ νομοφύλακι, καὶ ὃς ἀρετῇ πάντων διαφέρειν οἴεται καὶ νικητήρια τούτων αὐτῶν εἴληφεν, ἢ ταῦτα αὐτὰ περὶ ὧν νῦν λέγομεν, ἀνδρεία, σωφροσύνη, δικαιοσύνη, φρόνησις;
ATH. Is there indeed anything greater for a lawgiver and a guardian of the laws, and one who thinks he excels all in virtue and has received the prizes of victory for these very things, than these very things about which we are now speaking—courage, temperance, justice, wisdom?
ΚΛ. καὶ πῶς;
CLE. How indeed could there be?
ΑΘ. τούτων δὴ πέρι τοὺς ἐξηγητάς, τοὺς διδασκάλους, τοὺς νομοθέτας, τῶν ἄλλων τοὺς φύλακας, τῷ δεομένῳ γνῶναί τε καὶ εἰδέναι, ἢ τῷ δεομένῳ κολάζεσθαί τε καὶ ἐπιπλῆξαι ἁμαρτάνοντι, πότερον οὐ διδάσκοντα ἣν δύναμιν ἔχει κακία τε καὶ ἀρετὴ καὶ πάντως δηλοῦντα, διαφέρειν τῶν ἄλλων, ἀλλʼ ἢ ποιητήν τινα ἐλθόντα εἰς τὴν πόλιν ἢ παιδευτὴν νέων φάσκοντʼ εἶναι βελτίω φαίνεσθαι τοῦ πᾶσαν ἀρετὴν νενικηκότος;
ATH. Concerning these things, then, must not the interpreters, teachers, lawgivers, and guardians of the rest, for the one who needs to understand and know, or for the one who needs to be punished and rebuked when erring, teach what power vice and virtue have, and make it clear in every way, and thus excel others, rather than that some poet coming to the city, or someone claiming to be an educator of youth, should appear better than the one who has triumphed in all virtue?
εἶτα ἐν τῇ τοιαύτῃ πόλει ὅπου μὴ λόγῳ ἔργῳ τε ἱκανοὶ φύλακες εἶεν, ἀρετῆς πέρι γιγνώσκοντες ἱκανῶς, θαυμαστόν τι ταύτην τὴν πόλιν ἀφύλακτον οὖσαν πάσχειν ἃ πολλαὶ πάσχουσι τῶν νῦν πόλεων;
Then, in such a city where there are no guardians capable in word and deed, knowing adequately about virtue, is it any wonder that this city, being unguarded, suffers what many of the present-day cities suffer?
ΚΛ. οὐδέν γε, ὡς εἰκός.
CLE. Not at all, as is to be expected.
ΑΘ. τί οὖν;
ATH. What then?
ὃ λέγομεν νῦν ποιητέον ἡμῖν, ἢ πῶς;
Must we do what we are saying now, or what?
τοὺς φύλακας ἀκριβεστέρους τῶν πολλῶν περὶ ἀρετῆς ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ κατασκευαστέον;
Must we establish the guardians to be more precise than the many concerning virtue, both in deed and in word?
ἢ τίνα τρόπον τῇ τῶν ἐμφρόνων κεφαλῇ τε καὶ αἰσθήσεσιν ὁμοιωθήσεται ἡμῖν ἡ πόλις, ὡς τοιαύτην τινὰ φυλακὴν κεκτημένη ἐν αὑτῇ;
Or in what other way will our city be made like the head and the senses of the wise, as possessing some such guard within itself?
ΚΛ. πῶς οὖν δὴ καὶ τίνα τρόπον, ὦ ξένε, ἀπεικάζοντες αὐτὸ τοιούτῳ τινὶ λέγομεν;
CLE. How indeed and in what way, Stranger, do we speak of it, comparing it to some such thing?
ΑΘ. δῆλον ὡς αὐτῆς μὲν τῆς πόλεως οὔσης τοῦ κύτους, τῶν δὲ φυλάκων τοὺς μὲν νέους οἷον ἐν ἄκρᾳ κορυφῇ, ἀπειλεγμένους τοὺς εὐφυεστάτους, ὀξύτητας ἐν πάσῃ τῇ ψυχῇ ἔχοντας, περὶ ὅλην κύκλῳ τὴν πόλιν ὁρᾶν, §12.965ΑΘ. φρουροῦντας δὲ παραδιδόναι μὲν τὰς αἰσθήσεις ταῖς μνήμαις, τοῖς πρεσβυτέροις δὲ ἐξαγγέλους γίγνεσθαι πάντων τῶν κατὰ πόλιν, τοὺς δὲ νῷ ἀπῃκασμένους τῷ πολλὰ καὶ ἄξια λόγου διαφερόντως φρονεῖν, τοὺς γέροντας, βουλεύεσθαι, καὶ ὑπηρέταις χρωμένους μετὰ συμβουλίας τοῖς νέοις, οὕτω δὴ κοινῇ σῴζειν ἀμφοτέρους ὄντως τὴν πόλιν ὅλην.
ATH. Clearly, with the city itself being the vessel, and of the guardians, the young ones, selected as the most naturally gifted, possessing keenness in their whole soul, looking around the entire city in a circle as if on the highest summit, ATH. and while keeping guard, they hand over their perceptions to their memories, and become messengers to the elders of all things throughout the city, while those who are compared to the intellect because of their extraordinary understanding of many and worthy matters—namely, the elders—deliberate, and using the young as assistants together with counsel, in this way both in common truly save the whole city.
πότερον οὕτω λέγομεν ἤ πως ἄλλως δεῖν κατασκευάζεσθαι;
Do we say that it must be established in this way, or in some other way?
μῶν ὁμοίους πάντας κεκτημένους καὶ μὴ διηκριβωμένους ἔστιν οὓς τραφέντας τε καὶ πεπαιδευμένους;
Surely not by possessing them all alike and not having some who have been thoroughly refined in their rearing and education?
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ θαυμάσιε, ἀδύνατον.
CLE. But, my wonderful friend, that is impossible.
ΑΘ. ἰτέον ἄρα ἐπί τινα ἀκριβεστέραν παιδείαν τῆς ἔμπροσθεν.
ATH. Then we must proceed to some education more precise than the previous one.
ΚΛ. ἴσως.
CLE. Perhaps.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἧς δὴ νῦν σχεδὸν ἐφηψάμεθα, τυγχάνοι ἂν οὖσα ἧς χρείαν ἔχομεν αὕτη;
ATH. Might this very one, which we have now just touched upon, happen to be the one we need?
ΚΛ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν.
CLE. Entirely so.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἐλέγομεν τόν γε πρὸς ἕκαστα ἄκρον δημιουργόν τε καὶ φύλακα μὴ μόνον δεῖν πρὸς τὰ πολλὰ βλέπειν δυνατὸν εἶναι, πρὸς δὲ τὸ ἓν ἐπείγεσθαι γνῶναί τε, καὶ γνόντα πρὸς ἐκεῖνο συντάξασθαι πάντα συνορῶντα;
ATH. Did we not say that the expert craftsman and guardian in each field must not only be able to look to the many, but must press on to know the one, and, having known it, order all things by looking at them together in relation to that?
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
CLE. Correct.
ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν ἀκριβεστέρα σκέψις θέα τε ἂν περὶ ὁτουοῦν ὁτῳοῦν γίγνοιτο ἢ τὸ πρὸς μίαν ἰδέαν ἐκ τῶν πολλῶν καὶ ἀνομοίων δυνατὸν εἶναι βλέπειν;
ATH. Could there be a more precise examination and view for anyone concerning anything whatsoever, than to be able to look to one single idea from the many and dissimilar things?
ΚΛ. ἴσως.
CLE. Perhaps.
ΑΘ. οὐκ ἴσως, ἀλλʼ ὄντως, ὦ δαιμόνιε, ταύτης οὐκ ἔστιν σαφεστέρα μέθοδος ἀνθρώπων οὐδενί.
ATH. Not 'perhaps', but 'truly', my divine friend; there is no clearer method than this for any human being.
ΚΛ. σοὶ πιστεύων, ὦ ξένε, συγχωρῶ δή, καὶ ταύτῃ πορευώμεθα λέγοντες.
CLE. Trusting you, Stranger, I agree indeed, and let us proceed in our discussion along this path.
ΑΘ. ἀναγκαστέον ἄρʼ, ὡς ἔοικεν, καὶ τοὺς τῆς θείας πολιτείας ἡμῖν φύλακας ἀκριβῶς ἰδεῖν πρῶτον τί ποτε διὰ πάντων τῶν τεττάρων ταὐτὸν τυγχάνει, ὃ δή φαμεν ἔν τε ἀνδρείᾳ καὶ σωφροσύνῃ καὶ δικαιοσύνῃ καὶ ἐν φρονήσει ἓν ὄν, ἀρετὴν ἑνὶ δικαίως ἂν ὀνόματι προσαγορεύεσθαι.
ATH. It seems, then, that we must also compel the guardians of our divine state first to see precisely what on earth is the same thing running through all the four, which indeed we say, being one in courage, temperance, justice, and wisdom, would justly be addressed by the single name of virtue.
τοῦτο, ὦ φίλοι, εἰ μὲν βουλόμεθα, τὰ νῦν οἷόνπερ σφόδρα πιέσαντες μὴ ἀνῶμεν, πρὶν ἂν ἱκανῶς εἴπωμεν τί ποτʼ ἔστιν εἰς ὃ βλεπτέον, εἴτε ὡς ἓν εἴτε ὡς ὅλον εἴτε ἀμφότερα εἴτε ὅπως ποτὲ πέφυκεν·
This, my friends, if we wish, let us now press exceedingly hard upon it, as it were, and not let go until we have adequately stated what on earth it is to which we must look—whether as one, or as a whole, or as both, or in whatever way it is by nature.
ἢ τούτου διαφυγόντος ἡμᾶς, οἰόμεθά ποτε ἡμῖν ἱκανῶς ἕξειν τὰ πρὸς ἀρετήν, περὶ ἧς οὔτʼ εἰ πολλά ἐστʼ οὔτʼ εἰ τέτταρα οὔθʼ ὡς ἓν δυνατοὶ φράζειν ἐσόμεθα;
Or if this escapes us, do we think we shall ever have what is adequate in matters concerning virtue, about which we shall be able to state neither whether it is many, nor whether it is four, nor how it is one?
οὔκουν ἐάν γε ἡμῖν συμβούλοις πειθώμεθα, ἄλλως δέ πως μηχανησόμεθα ἐν τῇ πόλει ἐγγεγονέναι τοῦθʼ ἡμῖν·
Therefore, not indeed if we listen to ourselves as counselors; rather, we shall contrive in some other way how this may come to be present in our city.
εἰ δʼ ἄρα τὸ παράπαν δοκεῖ ἐᾶν, ὁρᾶν δὴ χρεών.
But if indeed it seems best to let it go altogether, then we must consider.
ΚΛ. ἥκιστα, νὴ τὸν ξένιον, ὦ ξένε, θεόν, ἐατέον που τὸ τοιοῦτον, ἐπεὶ δοκεῖς ἡμῖν ὀρθότατα λέγειν.
CLE. Not at all, by the god of hospitality, Stranger, must we let such a thing go, since you seem to us to speak most correctly.
ἀλλὰ δὴ πῶς τις τοῦτʼ ἂν μηχανῷτο;
But indeed, how might one contrive this?