§12.968ΑΘ. ὁ δὲ μὴ ταῦθʼ οἷός τʼ ὢν πρὸς ταῖς δημοσίαις ἀρεταῖς κεκτῆσθαι σχεδὸν ἄρχων μὲν οὐκ ἄν ποτε γένοιτο ἱκανὸς ὅλης πόλεως, ὑπηρέτης δʼ ἂν ἄλλοις ἄρχουσιν.
ATH. But he who is unable to acquire these in addition to the public virtues could almost never become a competent ruler of a whole city, but would be an assistant to other rulers.
ὁρᾶν δὴ χρεὼν νῦν, ὦ Κλεινία καὶ Μέγιλλε, ἤδη πρὸς τοῖς εἰρημένοις νόμοις ἅπασιν ὅσους διεληλύθαμεν εἰ καὶ τοῦτον προσοίσομεν, ὡς φυλακὴν ἐσόμενον κατὰ νόμον χάριν σωτηρίας τὸν τῶν ἀρχόντων νυκτερινὸν σύλλογον, παιδείας ὁπόσης διεληλύθαμεν κοινωνὸν γενόμενον· ἢ πῶς ποιῶμεν;
We must now see, Cleinias and Megillus, whether we shall add this one also to all the laws already mentioned, as a nocturnal council of rulers that is to serve as a guardian according to the law for the sake of salvation, having partaken of all the education we have gone through; or how shall we do?
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ λῷστε, πῶς οὐ προσοίσομεν, ἄν πῃ καὶ κατὰ βραχὺ δυνηθῶμεν;
CLE. But, my good friend, how should we not add it, if indeed we are able in any way, even slightly?
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν πρός γε τὸ τοιοῦτον ἁμιλληθῶμεν πάντες.
ATH. And indeed, let us all strive for such a goal.
συλλήπτωρ γὰρ τούτου γε ὑμῖν καὶ ἐγὼ γιγνοίμην ἂν προθύμως—πρὸς δʼ ἐμοὶ καὶ ἑτέρους ἴσως εὑρήσω—διὰ τὴν περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτʼ ἐμπειρίαν τε καὶ σκέψιν γεγονυῖάν μοι καὶ μάλα συχνήν.
For I would gladly become a helper to you in this—and besides myself I will perhaps find others—because of my experience and study concerning such matters, which has been quite extensive.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, παντὸς μὲν μᾶλλον ταύτῃ πορευτέον ᾗπερ καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμᾶς σχεδὸν ἄγει· τίς δὲ ὁ τρόπος ἡμῖν γιγνόμενος ὀρθῶς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, τοῦτο δὴ τὰ νῦν λέγωμέν τε καὶ ἐρευνῶμεν.
CLE. Indeed, stranger, we must proceed by all means on the path where the god almost leads us; but what way, if it comes about, would be right for us? Let us now speak of this and search it out.
ΑΘ. οὐκέτι νόμους, ὦ Μέγιλλε καὶ Κλεινία, περὶ τῶν τοιούτων δυνατόν ἐστιν νομοθετεῖν, πρὶν ἂν κοσμηθῇ—τότε δὲ κυρίους ὧν αὐτοὺς δεῖ γίγνεσθαι νομοθετεῖν—ἀλλὰ ἤδη τὸ τὰ τοιαῦτα κατασκευάζον διδαχὴ μετὰ συνουσίας πολλῆς γίγνοιτʼ ἄν, εἰ γίγνοιτο ὀρθῶς.
ATH. It is no longer possible, Megillus and Cleinias, to legislate concerning such matters before they are ordered—for then they themselves should become masters of what they ought to legislate—but rather the instruction, with much close association, would organize such matters, if it is to be done correctly.
ΚΛ. πῶς;
CLE. How?
τί τοῦτο εἰρῆσθαι φῶμεν αὖ;
What do we say is meant by this statement in turn?
ΑΘ. πρῶτον μὲν δήπου καταλεκτέος ἂν εἴη κατάλογος τῶν ὅσοι ἐπιτήδειοι πρὸς τὴν τῆς φυλακῆς φύσιν ἂν εἶεν ἡλικίαις τε καὶ μαθημάτων δυνάμεσιν καὶ τρόπων ἤθεσιν καὶ ἔθεσιν·
ATH. First of all, surely, we should draw up a list of all those who would be suitable for the nature of guardianship, in respect to ages, capacities for study, and qualities of character and habits.
μετὰ δὲ τοῦτο, ἃ δεῖ μανθάνειν οὔτε εὑρεῖν ῥᾴδιον οὔτε ηὑρηκότος ἄλλου μαθητὴν γενέσθαι.
After this, what they must learn is neither easy to discover nor is it easy to become a pupil of another who has discovered it.
πρὸς τούτοις δὲ χρόνους, οὕς τε καὶ ἐν οἷς δεῖ παραλαμβάνειν ἕκαστα, μάταιον ταῦτʼ ἐν γράμμασιν λέγειν· οὐδὲ γὰρ αὐτοῖς τοῖς μανθάνουσι δῆλα γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὅτι πρὸς καιρὸν μανθάνεται, πρὶν ἐντὸς τῆς ψυχῆς ἑκάστῳ που μαθήματος ἐπιστήμην γεγονέναι.
Moreover, as for the times, both how long and when they should receive each subject, it is useless to state these in writing; for not even to the learners themselves would it be clear that they are learning at the proper time until knowledge of each subject has somehow been established within the soul.
οὕτω δὴ πάντα τὰ περὶ ταῦτα ἀπόρρητα μὲν λεχθέντα οὐκ ἂν ὀρθῶς λέγοιτο, ἀπρόρρητα δὲ διὰ τὸ μηδὲν προρρηθέντα δηλοῦν τῶν λεγομένων.
Thus, all things concerning these matters, if called unspeakable, would not be correctly called so, yet they are not to be spoken of beforehand because predicting them beforehand reveals nothing of what is being spoken.
ΚΛ. τί οὖν δὴ ποιητέον ἐχόντων τούτων οὕτως, ὦ ξένε;
CLE. What then must we do, stranger, since these things are so?
§12.969ΑΘ. τὸ λεγόμενον, ὦ φίλοι, ἐν κοινῷ καὶ μέσῳ ἔοικεν ἡμῖν κεῖσθαι, καὶ εἴπερ κινδυνεύειν περὶ τῆς πολιτείας ἐθέλομεν συμπάσης, ἢ τρὶς ἕξ, φασίν, ἢ τρεῖς κύβους βάλλοντες, ταῦτα ποιητέον, ἐγὼ δʼ ὑμῖν συγκινδυνεύσω τῷ φράζειν τε καὶ ἐξηγεῖσθαι τά γε δεδογμένα ἐμοὶ περὶ τῆς παιδείας τε καὶ τροφῆς τῆς νῦν αὖ κεκινημένης τοῖς λόγοις·
ATH. The saying, my friends, seems to lie in common and in our midst; and if indeed we wish to run a risk concerning the whole constitution, either throwing three sixes, as they say, or three aces, we must do this, and I will share the risk with you by explaining and expounding what has been decided by me concerning the education and nurture which has now been brought up again in our discussion.
τὸ μέντοι κινδύνευμα οὐ σμικρὸν οὐδʼ ἑτέροις τισὶν προσφερὲς ἂν εἴη.
The risk, however, is not small, nor is it similar to any other.
σοὶ δὴ τοῦτό γε, ὦ Κλεινία, μέλειν παρακελεύομαι· σὺ γὰρ τὴν Μαγνήτων πόλιν, ἢ ᾧ ἂν θεὸς ἐπώνυμον αὐτὴν ποιήσῃ, κλέος ἀρῇ μέγιστον κατασκευάσας αὐτὴν ὀρθῶς, ἢ τό γε ἀνδρειότατος εἶναι δοκεῖν τῶν ὕστερον ἐπιγιγνομένων οὐκ ἐκφεύξῃ ποτέ.
To you, Cleinias, I urge that this should be a care; for you will win the greatest glory by constructing the city of the Magnetes correctly, or whatever name the god might give it, or at least you will never escape being thought the most courageous of those who come after.
ἐάν γε μὴν οὗτος ἡμῖν ὁ θεῖος γένηται σύλλογος, ὦ φίλοι ἑταῖροι, παραδοτέον τούτῳ τὴν πόλιν, ἀμφισβήτησίς τε οὐκ ἔστʼ οὐδεμία οὐδενὶ τῶν νῦν παρὰ ταῦθʼ ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν νομοθετῶν, ὄντως δὲ ἔσται σχεδὸν ὕπαρ ἀποτετελεσμένον οὗ σμικρῷ πρόσθεν ὀνείρατος ὣς τῷ λόγῳ ἐφηψάμεθα, κεφαλῆς νοῦ τε κοινωνίας εἰκόνα τινά πως συμμείξαντες, ἐὰν ἄρα ἡμῖν οἵ τε ἄνδρες ἀκριβῶς ἐκλεχθῶσι, παιδευθῶσί τε προσηκόντως, παιδευθέντες τε ἐν ἀκροπόλει τῆς χώρας κατοικήσαντες, φύλακες ἀποτελεσθῶσιν οἵους ἡμεῖς οὐκ εἴδομεν ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν βίῳ πρὸς ἀρετὴν σωτηρίας γενομένους.
If indeed this divine council of ours comes into being, my dear companions, the city must be handed over to it, and there is no dispute whatsoever with any of the legislators of today who speak contrary to this, but it will be in reality almost a waking reality completed, of which we touched upon in our discussion a little while ago as a dream, mixing together in some way an image of the association of head and intellect—if indeed our men are accurately selected and properly educated, and after being educated take up residence in the acropolis of the country and become guardians such as we have never seen in our previous life, serving for salvation in respect to virtue.
ΜΕ. ὦ φίλε Κλεινία, ἐκ τῶν νῦν ἡμῖν εἰρημένων ἁπάντων ἢ τὴν πόλιν ἐατέον τῆς κατοικίσεως ἢ τὸν ξένον τόνδε οὐκ ἀφετέον, ἀλλὰ δεήσεσιν καὶ μηχαναῖς πάσαις κοινωνὸν ποιητέον ἐπὶ τὴν τῆς πόλεως κατοίκισιν.
ME. My dear Cleinias, from all that has now been said to us, either we must abandon the founding of the city, or we must not let this stranger go, but by all prayers and devices make him a partner in the settlement of the city.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις, ὦ Μέγιλλε, καὶ ἐγὼ ποιήσω ταῦθʼ οὕτως καὶ σὺ συλλάμβανε.
CLE. You speak most truly, Megillus, and I will do so; and do you also assist.
ΜΕ. συλλήψομαι.
ME. I will assist.