§10.898ΑΘ. τῶν δʼ αὖ κινουμένων τὰ μὲν ἐν ἑνὶ τόπῳ κινεῖσθαι, τὰ δʼ ἐν πλείοσιν φερόμενα. ΚΛ. ἔστι ταῦτα. ΑΘ. τούτοιν δὴ τοῖν κινησέοιν τὴν ἐν ἑνὶ φερομένην ἀεὶ περί γέ τι μέσον ἀνάγκη κινεῖσθαι, τῶν ἐντόρνων οὖσαν μίμημά τι κύκλων, εἶναί τε αὐτὴν τῇ τοῦ νοῦ περιόδῳ πάντως ὡς δυνατὸν οἰκειοτάτην τε καὶ ὁμοίαν. ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις; ΑΘ. τὸ κατὰ ταὐτὰ δήπου καὶ ὡσαύτως καὶ ἐν τῷ αὐτῷ καὶ περὶ τὰ αὐτὰ καὶ πρὸς τὰ αὐτὰ καὶ ἕνα λόγον καὶ τάξιν μίαν ἄμφω κινεῖσθαι λέγοντες, νοῦν τήν τε ἐν ἑνὶ φερομένην κίνησιν, σφαίρας ἐντόρνου ἀπεικασμένα φοραῖς, οὐκ ἄν ποτε φανεῖμεν φαῦλοι δημιουργοὶ λόγῳ καλῶν εἰκόνων. ΚΛ. ὀρθότατα λέγεις. ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν αὖ ἥ γε μηδέποτε ὡσαύτως μηδὲ κατὰ τὰ αὐτὰ μηδὲ ἐν ταὐτῷ μηδὲ περὶ ταὐτὰ μηδὲ πρὸς ταὐτὰ μηδʼ ἐν ἑνὶ φερομένη μηδʼ ἐν κόσμῳ μηδʼ ἐν τάξει μηδὲ ἔν τινι λόγῳ κίνησις ἀνοίας ἂν ἁπάσης εἴη συγγενής; ΚΛ. εἴη γὰρ ἂν ἀληθέστατα. ΑΘ. νῦν δὴ χαλεπὸν οὐδὲν ἔτι διαρρήδην εἰπεῖν ὡς, ἐπειδὴ ψυχὴ μέν ἐστιν ἡ περιάγουσα ἡμῖν πάντα, τὴν δὲ οὐρανοῦ περιφορὰν ἐξ ἀνάγκης περιάγειν φατέον ἐπιμελουμένην καὶ κοσμοῦσαν ἤτοι τὴν ἀρίστην ψυχὴν ἢ τὴν ἐναντίαν. ΚΛ. ὦ ξένε, ἀλλὰ ἔκ γε τῶν νῦν εἰρημένων οὐδʼ ὅσιον ἄλλως λέγειν ἢ πᾶσαν ἀρετὴν ἔχουσαν ψυχὴν μίαν ἢ πλείους περιάγειν αὐτά. ΑΘ. κάλλιστα, ὦ Κλεινία, ὑπήκουσας τοῖς λόγοις· τόδε δὲ προσυπάκουσον ἔτι. ΚΛ. τὸ ποῖον; ΑΘ. Ἥλιον καὶ σελήνην καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἄστρα, εἴπερ ψυχὴ περιάγει πάντα, ἆρʼ οὐ καὶ ἓν ἕκαστον; ΚΛ. τί μήν; ΑΘ. περὶ ἑνὸς δὴ ποιησώμεθα λόγους, οἳ καὶ ἐπὶ πάντα ἡμῖν ἄστρα ἁρμόττοντες φανοῦνται. ΚΛ. τίνος; ΑΘ. Ἡλίου πᾶς ἄνθρωπος σῶμα μὲν ὁρᾷ, ψυχὴν δὲ οὐδείς·
**ATH.**: "And again, of things that move, some move in one place, and others are carried in multiple places?" **CL.**: "That is so." **ATH.**: "Of these two motions, that which is carried in one place must always move around some center, being a kind of imitation of turned circles, and it is also necessary that it is in every way as akin and similar as possible to the revolution of intellect." **CL.**: "How do you mean?" **ATH.**: "If we say that both—namely, intellect and the motion carried in one place, likened to the movements of a turned sphere—move in the same way, and likewise, and in the same place, and around the same things, and toward the same things, and according to one ratio and one order, we should never appear to be poor craftsmen of beautiful images in speech." **CL.**: "You have spoken most correctly." **ATH.**: "Would not, then, on the other hand, the motion which is carried never in the same way, nor in the same manner, nor in the same place, nor around the same things, nor toward the same things, nor in one place, nor in order, nor in arrangement, nor according to any ratio, be akin to all folly?" **CL.**: "It would indeed, most truly." **ATH.**: "Now indeed it is no longer difficult to say explicitly that, since it is soul that leads all things around for us, we must of necessity say that either the best soul or its opposite leads the revolution of heaven around, caring for and ordering it." **CL.**: "O stranger, but from what has now been said, it is not even pious to say otherwise than that one or more souls possessing all virtue lead them around." **ATH.**: "Most excellently, Clinias, have you followed the arguments; but listen further to this besides." **CL.**: "What sort of thing?" **ATH.**: "If soul leads all things around, does it not also lead each single one of the sun, moon, and other stars?" **CL.**: "Of course." **ATH.**: "Let us then construct arguments about one, which will also appear to fit all stars for us." **CL.**: "Which one?" **ATH.**: "Every human sees the body of the sun, but no one sees its soul; nor indeed does anyone see the soul of any other body, whether living or dying, of living creatures.
οὐδὲ γὰρ ἄλλου σώματος οὐδενὸς οὔτε ζῶντος οὔτε ἀποθνῄσκοντος τῶν ζῴων, ἀλλὰ ἐλπὶς πολλὴ τὸ παράπαν τὸ γένος ἡμῖν τοῦτο ἀναίσθητον πάσαις ταῖς τοῦ σώματος αἰσθήσεσι περιπεφυκέναι, νοητὸν δʼ εἶναι.
Instead, there is great hope that this class is altogether imperceptible to all our bodily senses, but is intelligible.
νῷ μόνῳ δὴ καὶ διανοήματι λάβωμεν αὐτοῦ πέρι τὸ τοιόνδε. ΚΛ. ποῖον; ΑΘ. Ἥλιον εἴπερ ἄγει ψυχή, τριῶν αὐτὴν ἓν λέγοντες δρᾶν σχεδὸν οὐκ ἀποτευξόμεθα. ΚΛ. τίνων; §10.899ΑΘ. ὡς ἢ ἐνοῦσα ἐντὸς τῷ περιφερεῖ τούτῳ φαινομένῳ σώματι πάντῃ διακομίζει τὸ τοιοῦτον, καθάπερ ἡμᾶς ἡ παρʼ ἡμῖν ψυχὴ πάντῃ περιφέρει· ἤ ποθεν ἔξωθεν σῶμα αὑτῇ πορισαμένη πυρὸς ἤ τινος ἀέρος, ὡς λόγος ἐστί τινων, ὠθεῖ βίᾳ σώματι σῶμα· ἢ τρίτον αὐτὴ ψιλὴ σώματος οὖσα, ἔχουσα δὲ δυνάμεις ἄλλας τινὰς ὑπερβαλλούσας θαύματι, ποδηγεῖ. ΚΛ. ναί, τοῦτο μὲν ἀνάγκη, τούτων ἕν γέ τι δρῶσαν ψυχὴν πάντα διάγειν.
Let us then grasp the following about it by intellect alone and thought." **CL.**: "What sort of thing?" **ATH.**: "If a soul guides the sun, we shall not miss the mark by much if we say that it does one of three things." **CL.**: "Which three?" **ATH.**: "Either that, dwelling inside this circular visible body, it conveys it everywhere, just as the soul in us carries us everywhere; or that, having provided itself from somewhere outside with a body of fire or some air, as is the talk of some, it pushes body with body by force; or thirdly, being itself bare of body, but possessing certain other powers exceeding in wonder, it guides it." **CL.**: "Yes, this is necessary, that a soul leads all things by doing at least one of these." **ATH.**: "Therefore, it is better that every man should believe this soul—whether it brings us the sun in chariots to bring light to all, or from outside, or however and in whatever way—to be a god.
ΑΘ. αὐτοῦ δὴ ἄμεινον ταύτην τὴν ψυχήν, εἴτε ἐν ἅρμασιν ἔχουσα ἡμῖν ἥλιον ἄγει φῶς τοῖς ἅπασιν, εἴτε ἔξωθεν, εἴθʼ ὅπως εἴθʼ ὅπῃ, θεὸν ἡγεῖσθαι χρεὼν πάντα ἄνδρα. ἢ πῶς; ΚΛ. ναί, τόν γέ που μὴ ἐπὶ τὸ ἔσχατον ἀφιγμένον ἀνοίας. ΑΘ. ἄστρων δὴ πέρι πάντων καὶ σελήνης, ἐνιαυτῶν τε καὶ μηνῶν καὶ πασῶν ὡρῶν πέρι, τίνα ἄλλον λόγον ἐροῦμεν ἢ τὸν αὐτὸν τοῦτον, ὡς ἐπειδὴ ψυχὴ μὲν ἢ ψυχαὶ πάντων τούτων αἴτιαι ἐφάνησαν, ἀγαθαὶ δὲ πᾶσαν ἀρετήν, θεοὺς αὐτὰς εἶναι φήσομεν, εἴτε ἐν σώμασιν ἐνοῦσαι, ζῷα ὄντα, κοσμοῦσιν πάντα οὐρανόν, εἴτε ὅπῃ τε καὶ ὅπως;
Or how else?" **CL.**: "Yes, at least anyone who has not arrived at the extreme of folly." **ATH.**: "Concerning all the stars and the moon, and years and months and all seasons, what other argument shall we say than this very same one, that since a soul or souls have appeared to be the causes of all these, and good in every virtue, we shall declare them to be gods, whether dwelling in bodies as living beings they order the whole heaven, or in whatever way and manner?
ἔσθʼ ὅστις ταῦτα ὁμολογῶν ὑπομενεῖ μὴ θεῶν εἶναι πλήρη πάντα; ΚΛ. οὐκ ἔστιν οὕτως, ὦ ξένε, παραφρονῶν οὐδείς. ΑΘ. τῷ μὲν τοίνυν μὴ νομίζοντι θεοὺς ἐν τῷ πρόσθεν χρόνῳ, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία, εἰπόντες ὅρους ἀπαλλαττώμεθα. ΚΛ. τίνας; ΑΘ. ἢ διδάσκειν ἡμᾶς ὡς οὐκ ὀρθῶς λέγομεν τιθέμενοι ψυχὴν γένεσιν ἁπάντων εἶναι πρώτην, καὶ τἆλλα ὁπόσα τούτων συνεπόμενα εἴπομεν, ἢ μὴ δυνάμενον βέλτιον λέγειν ἡμῶν, ἡμῖν πείθεσθαι καὶ ζῆν θεοὺς ἡγούμενον εἰς τὸν ἐπίλοιπον βίον.
Is there anyone who, agreeing to these things, will endure to say that all things are not full of gods?" **CL.**: "There is no one, stranger, so out of his mind." **ATH.**: "To the one, then, who did not believe in gods in the past, Megillus and Clinias, let us state the terms and be rid of him." **CL.**: "What terms?" **ATH.**: "Either to teach us that we do not speak correctly in positing that soul is the first origin of all things, and all the other things we said following from this; or, if he is unable to speak better than we, to obey us and live the rest of his life believing that gods exist.
ὁρῶμεν οὖν εἴτε ἱκανῶς ἤδη τοῖς οὐχ ἡγουμένοις θεοὺς εἰρήκαμεν ὡς εἰσὶν θεοί, εἴτε ἐπιδεῶς. ΚΛ. ἥκιστά γε, ὦ ξένε, πάντων ἐπιδεῶς. ΑΘ. τούτοις μὲν τοίνυν ἡμῖν τὸ λόγων τέλος ἐχέτω· τὸν δὲ ἡγούμενον μὲν θεοὺς εἶναι, μὴ φροντίζειν δὲ αὐτοὺς τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων πραγμάτων, παραμυθητέον.
Let us see, then, whether we have already spoken sufficiently to those who do not believe in gods that gods exist, or deficiently." **CL.**: "By no means, stranger, is it deficient in any way." **ATH.**: "Let this, then, be the end of our arguments for those; but the one who believes that gods exist, but that they do not care for human affairs, must be persuaded.
ὦ ἄριστε δὴ φῶμεν, ὅτι μὲν ἡγῇ θεούς, συγγένειά τις ἴσως σε θεία πρὸς τὸ σύμφυτον ἄγει τιμᾶν καὶ νομίζειν εἶναι·
Let us say to him: 'O best of men, that you believe in gods is perhaps because some divine kinship leads you to honor what is kindred and to believe they exist.
κακῶν δὲ ἀνθρώπων καὶ ἀδίκων τύχαι ἰδίᾳ καὶ δημοσίᾳ, ἀληθείᾳ μὲν οὐκ εὐδαίμονες, δόξαις δὲ εὐδαιμονιζόμεναι σφόδρα ἀλλʼ οὐκ ἐμμελῶς, ἄγουσί σε πρὸς ἀσέβειαν, ἔν τε μούσαις οὐκ ὀρθῶς ὑμνούμεναι ἅμα καὶ ἐν παντοίοις λόγοις.
But the fortunes of bad and unjust men in private and public—which, though in truth not happy, are in public opinion celebrated as highly happy, though not in tune—lead you toward impiety, being wrongly sung in poetry and at the same time in all kinds of prose.'"