§10.892ΚΛ. οὔπω μανθάνω. ΑΘ. ψυχήν, ὦ ἑταῖρε, ἠγνοηκέναι κινδυνεύουσι μὲν ὀλίγου σύμπαντες οἷόν τε ὂν τυγχάνει καὶ δύναμιν ἣν ἔχει, τῶν τε ἄλλων αὐτῆς πέρι καὶ δὴ καὶ γενέσεως, ὡς ἐν πρώτοις ἐστί, σωμάτων ἔμπροσθεν πάντων γενομένη, καὶ μεταβολῆς τε αὐτῶν καὶ μετακοσμήσεως ἁπάσης ἄρχει παντὸς μᾶλλον·
**CL.**: I do not yet understand. **ATH.**: My friend, almost all men seem to be ignorant of what kind of thing the soul is and what power it has, both in other respects and especially concerning its origin, namely, that it is among the first things, having come into being before all bodies, and that it rules over all their change and every kind of rearrangement more than anything.
εἰ δὲ ἔστιν ταῦτα οὕτως, ἆρʼ οὐκ ἐξ ἀνάγκης τὰ ψυχῆς συγγενῆ πρότερα ἂν εἴη γεγονότα τῶν σώματι προσηκόντων, οὔσης γʼ αὐτῆς πρεσβυτέρας ἢ σώματος;
If these things are so, is it not necessary that those things akin to soul would have come into being prior to those belonging to body, since soul itself is older than body?
ΚΛ. ἀνάγκη. ΑΘ. δόξα δὴ καὶ ἐπιμέλεια καὶ νοῦς καὶ τέχνη καὶ νόμος σκληρῶν καὶ μαλακῶν καὶ βαρέων καὶ κούφων πρότερα ἂν εἴη·
**CL.**: Necessary. **ATH.**: Opinion, then, and care and intellect and art and law would be prior to hard and soft and heavy and light.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τὰ μεγάλα καὶ πρῶτα ἔργα καὶ πράξεις τέχνης ἂν γίγνοιτο, ὄντα ἐν πρώτοις, τὰ δὲ φύσει καὶ φύσις, ἣν οὐκ ὀρθῶς ἐπονομάζουσιν αὐτὸ τοῦτο, ὕστερα καὶ ἀρχόμενα ἂν ἐκ τέχνης εἴη καὶ νοῦ.
Indeed, also the great and first works and actions would belong to art, being among the first, while those that are by nature, and 'nature' (which they name incorrectly by this very word), would be later and ruled by art and intellect.
ΚΛ. πῶς οὐκ ὀρθῶς; ΑΘ. φύσιν βούλονται λέγειν γένεσιν τὴν περὶ τὰ πρῶτα·
**CL.**: How incorrectly? **ATH.**: They wish to mean by 'nature' the generation concerning the first things.
εἰ δὲ φανήσεται ψυχὴ πρῶτον, οὐ πῦρ οὐδὲ ἀήρ, ψυχὴ δʼ ἐν πρώτοις γεγενημένη, σχεδὸν ὀρθότατα λέγοιτʼ ἂν εἶναι διαφερόντως φύσει.
But if soul shall appear to be first, and not fire nor air, soul having come into being among the first things, it would be said most correctly to exist preeminently by nature.
ταῦτʼ ἔσθʼ οὕτως ἔχοντα, ἂν ψυχήν τις ἐπιδείξῃ πρεσβυτέραν οὖσαν σώματος, ἄλλως δὲ οὐδαμῶς. ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα λέγεις. ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα ἐπʼ αὐτὸ δὴ τοῦτο στελλώμεθα;
These things are so, if one shows that soul is older than body, but otherwise not at all. **CL.**: You speak most truly. **ATH.**: Shall we then set out next upon this very thing?
ΚΛ. τί μήν; ΑΘ. φυλάττωμεν δὴ παντάπασιν ἀπατηλὸν λόγον, μή πῃ πρεσβύτας ἡμᾶς ὄντας νεοπρεπὴς ὢν παραπείσῃ καὶ διαφυγὼν καταγελάστους ποιήσῃ, καὶ δόξωμεν μείζονα ἐπιβαλλόμενοι καὶ τῶν σμικρῶν ἀποτυχεῖν.
**CL.**: Of course. **ATH.**: Let us then guard against an altogether deceptive argument, lest somehow, since we are old, it, being youthful, should beguile us and, escaping, make us ridiculous, and we should seem, by aiming at greater things, to fail even in small ones.
σκοπεῖτε οὖν.
Look then: if it were necessary for us, being three, to cross a very strongly flowing river, and I, happening to be the youngest of us and experienced in many currents, said that I must first make trial by myself, leaving you in safety, to see if it is fordable also for you who are older, or how it is, and if it appeared so, then to call you and help you across through my experience, but if it were unfordable for you, the danger would have been mine alone—I should seem to speak reasonably.
εἰ καθάπερ ποταμὸν ἡμᾶς ἔδει τρεῖς ὄντας διαβαίνειν ῥέοντα σφόδρα, νεώτατος δʼ ἐγὼ τυγχάνων ἡμῶν καὶ πολλῶν ἔμπειρος ῥευμάτων, εἶπον ὅτι πρῶτον ἐμὲ χρῆναι πειραθῆναι κατʼ ἐμαυτόν, καταλιπόντα ὑμᾶς ἐν ἀσφαλεῖ, σκέψασθαι εἰ διαβατός ἐστι πρεσβυτέροις οὖσι καὶ ὑμῖν, ἢ πῶς ἔχει, καὶ φανέντος μὲν ταύτῃ, καλεῖν ὑμᾶς τότε καὶ συνδιαβιβάζειν ἐμπειρίᾳ, εἰ δὲ ἄβατος ἦν ὡς ὑμῖν, ἐν ἐμοὶ τὸν κίνδυνον γεγονέναι, μετρίως ἂν ἐδόκουν λέγειν, καὶ δὴ καὶ νῦν ὁ μέλλων ἐστὶ λόγος σφοδρότερος καὶ σχεδὸν ἴσως ἄβατος ὡς τῇ σφῷν ῥώμῃ·
And indeed, also now the argument that is to come is very violent and almost perhaps unfordable for your strength.
§10.893ΑΘ. μὴ δὴ σκοτοδινίαν ἴλιγγόν τε ὑμῖν ἐμποιήσῃ παραφερόμενός τε καὶ ἐρωτῶν ἀήθεις ὄντας ἀποκρίσεων, εἶτʼ ἀσχημοσύνην ἀπρέπειάν τε ἐντέκῃ ἀηδῆ, δοκεῖ δή μοι χρῆναι ποιεῖν οὑτωσὶ τὰ νῦν ἐμέ, ἀνερωτᾶν πρῶτον ἐμαυτόν, ἀκουόντων ὑμῶν ἐν ἀσφαλεῖ, καὶ μετὰ ταῦτα ἀποκρίνασθαι πάλιν ἐμέ, καὶ τὸν λόγον ἅπαντα οὕτω διεξελθεῖν, μέχριπερ ἂν ψυχῆς πέρι διαπεράνηται καὶ δείξῃ πρότερον ὂν ψυχὴν σώματος. ΚΛ. ἄριστʼ, ὦ ξένε, δοκεῖς ἡμῖν εἰρηκέναι, ποίει τε ὡς λέγεις.
**ATH.**: Lest indeed, sweeping past and asking questions of you who are unaccustomed to answering, it should produce in you dizziness and giddiness, and then breed an unpleasant and unseemly awkwardness, it seems to me that I must now act in this way: first to question myself while you listen in safety, and after this to answer myself in turn, and thus to go through the whole argument until it achieves its end concerning the soul and shows that soul is prior to body. **CL.**: You seem to us, stranger, to have spoken excellently; do as you say.
ΑΘ. ἄγε δή, θεὸν εἴ ποτε παρακλητέον ἡμῖν, νῦν ἔστω τοῦτο οὕτω γενόμενον—ἐπί γε ἀπόδειξιν ὡς εἰσὶν τὴν αὑτῶν σπουδῇ πάσῃ παρακεκλήσθων—ἐχόμενοι δὲ ὥς τινος ἀσφαλοῦς πείσματος ἐπεισβαίνωμεν εἰς τὸν νῦν λόγον. καί μοι ἐλεγχομένῳ περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα ἐρωτήσεσιν τοιαῖσδε ἀσφαλέστατα ἀποκρίνεσθαι φαίνεται κατὰ τάδε·
**ATH.**: Come then, if ever we must call upon a god, let it be done so now—indeed, let them be called upon with all haste for the demonstration of their own existence—and holding onto the argument as to some safe cable, let us embark upon the present discussion.
ὦ ξένε, ὁπόταν φῇ τις, ἆρα ἕστηκε μὲν πάντα, κινεῖται δὲ οὐδέν;
And to me, when I am examined concerning such matters with such questions, it seems safest to answer in this way: "Stranger, whenever someone asks: Do all things stand still and nothing move?
ἢ τούτῳ πᾶν τοὐναντίον;
Or the very opposite of this?
ἢ τὰ μὲν αὐτῶν κινεῖται, τὰ δὲ μένει; — τὰ μὲν κινεῖταί που, φήσω, τὰ δὲ μένει.
Or do some of them move, and others remain still?" — "Some move, I suppose, and others remain still," I shall say.
—μῶν οὖν οὐκ ἐν χώρᾳ τινὶ τά τε ἑστῶτα ἕστηκεν καὶ τὰ κινούμενα κινεῖται; —πῶς γὰρ οὔ; —καὶ τὰ μέν γε ἐν μιᾷ ἕδρᾳ που τοῦτο ἂν δρῴη, τὰ δὲ ἐν πλείοσιν. —τὰ τὴν τῶν ἑστώτων ἐν μέσῳ λαμβάνοντα δύναμιν λέγεις, φήσομεν, ἐν ἑνὶ κινεῖσθαι, καθάπερ ἡ τῶν ἑστάναι λεγομένων κύκλων στρέφεται περιφορά; —ναί. μανθάνομεν δέ γε ὡς ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ περιφορᾷ τὸν μέγιστον καὶ τὸν σμικρότατον κύκλον ἅμα περιάγουσα, ἡ τοιαύτη κίνησις ἀνὰ λόγον ἑαυτὴν διανέμει σμικροῖς τε καὶ μείζοσιν, ἐλάττων τε οὖσα καὶ πλείων κατὰ λόγον·
"Do not, then, the things that stand still stand, and the things that move move, in some place?" "How could they not?" "And some indeed would do this in one seat, and others in more." "Do you mean," we shall say, "that those things which acquire the power of things standing in the middle move in one place, just as the rotation of circles, which are said to stand still, turns?" "Yes." "And we understand indeed that in this rotation, carrying around the greatest and the smallest circle together, such a motion distributes itself proportionally to small and larger circles, being less and more according to the proportion.
διὸ δὴ τῶν θαυμαστῶν ἁπάντων πηγὴ γέγονεν, ἅμα μεγάλοις καὶ σμικροῖς κύκλοις βραδυτῆτάς τε καὶ τάχη ὁμολογούμενα πορεύουσα, ἀδύνατον, ὡς ἄν τις ἐλπίσειε, γίγνεσθαι πάθος. —ἀληθέστατα λέγεις. —τὰ δέ γε κινούμενα ἐν πολλοῖς φαίνῃ μοι λέγειν ὅσα φορᾷ κινεῖται μεταβαίνοντα εἰς ἕτερον ἀεὶ τόπον, καὶ τοτὲ μὲν ἔστιν ὅτε βάσιν ἑνὸς κεκτημένα τινὸς κέντρου, τοτὲ δὲ πλείονα τῷ περικυλινδεῖσθαι.
Wherefore indeed it has become a source of all wonders, conveying slower and faster speeds corresponding to great and small circles simultaneously, a phenomenon which one might have expected to be impossible." "You speak most truly." "And those things which move in many places, you seem to me to mean all those which move by translation, changing always to another place, and sometimes having the base of one center, and sometimes more, by rolling around.
προστυγχάνοντα δʼ ἑκάστοτε ἑκάστοις, τοῖς ἑστῶσι μὲν διασχίζεται, τοῖς δʼ ἄλλοις ἐξ ἐναντίας ἀπαντῶσι καὶ φερομένοις εἰς ἓν γιγνόμενα μέσα τε καὶ μεταξὺ τῶν τοιούτων συγκρίνεται. —λέγω γὰρ οὖν ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχοντα, ὡς σὺ λέγεις. —
And happening upon other things on each occasion, they are divided by those that stand still, but, meeting other things coming from the opposite direction and moving, they combine and become intermediate and in-between such things." "Yes, indeed, I say that these things are so, just as you say."