§10.891ΚΛ. τί δέ, ὦ ξένε;
**CL.** What indeed, stranger?
περὶ μέθης μὲν καὶ μουσικῆς οὕτω μακρὰ λέγοντας ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς περιεμείναμεν, περὶ θεῶν δὲ καὶ τῶν τοιούτων οὐχ ὑπομενοῦμεν;
For we waited for ourselves speaking so long about drunkenness and music, and shall we not endure speaking about the gods and such things?
καὶ μὴν καὶ νομοθεσίᾳ γέ ἐστίν που τῇ μετὰ φρονήσεως μεγίστη βοήθεια, διότι τὰ περὶ νόμους προστάγματα ἐν γράμμασι τεθέντα, ὡς δώσοντα εἰς πάντα χρόνον ἔλεγχον, πάντως ἠρεμεῖ, ὥστε οὔτʼ εἰ χαλεπὰ κατʼ ἀρχὰς ἀκούειν ἐστὶν φοβητέον, ἅ γʼ ἔσται καὶ τῷ δυσμαθεῖ πολλάκις ἐπανιόντι σκοπεῖν, οὔτε εἰ μακρά, ὠφέλιμα δέ, διὰ ταῦτα λόγον οὐδαμῇ ἔχει οὐδὲ ὅσιον ἔμοιγε εἶναι φαίνεται τὸ μὴ οὐ βοηθεῖν τούτοις τοῖς λόγοις πάντα ἄνδρα κατὰ δύναμιν. ΜΕ. ἄριστα, ὦ ξένε, δοκεῖ μοι λέγειν Κλεινίας.
And indeed, it is surely the greatest help to legislation with wisdom, because the regulations concerning laws, having been put in writing, as they will provide a test for all time, remain entirely at rest, so that we need not fear even if they are difficult to hear at the beginning, since they will be available even for the slow learner to examine by returning to them many times; nor, if they are long but beneficial, does it make any sense for this reason to avoid them, nor does it seem to me to be holy for every man not to help these arguments to the best of his ability. **ME.** It seems to me, stranger, that Cleinias speaks excellently.
ΑΘ. καὶ μάλα γε, ὦ Μέγιλλε, ποιητέον τε ὡς λέγει.
**ATH.** Quite so, Megillus, and we must do as he says.
καὶ γὰρ εἰ μὴ κατεσπαρμένοι ἦσαν οἱ τοιοῦτοι λόγοι ἐν τοῖς πᾶσιν ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν ἀνθρώποις, οὐδὲν ἂν ἔδει τῶν ἐπαμυνούντων λόγων ὡς εἰσὶν θεοί· νῦν δὲ ἀνάγκη.
For indeed, if such arguments had not been scattered abroad among practically all men, as one might say, there would be no need of arguments defending the existence of the gods; but now it is necessary.
νόμοις οὖν διαφθειρομένοις τοῖς μεγίστοις ὑπὸ κακῶν ἀνθρώπων τίνα καὶ μᾶλλον προσήκει βοηθεῖν ἢ νομοθέτην; ΜΕ. οὐκ ἔστιν. ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ δὴ λέγε μοι πάλιν, Κλεινία, καὶ σύ—κοινωνὸν γὰρ δεῖ σε εἶναι τῶν λόγων—κινδυνεύει γὰρ ὁ λέγων ταῦτα πῦρ καὶ ὕδωρ καὶ γῆν καὶ ἀέρα πρῶτα ἡγεῖσθαι τῶν πάντων εἶναι, καὶ τὴν φύσιν ὀνομάζειν ταῦτα αὐτά, ψυχὴν δὲ ἐκ τούτων ὕστερον.
When, therefore, the greatest laws are being ruined by wicked men, who is more suited to help them than the lawmaker? **ME.** There is no one. **ATH.** But indeed, tell me again, Cleinias, and you too—for you must be a partner in the arguments—for the one who says these things is in danger of holding fire, water, earth, and air to be the first of all things, and of calling these very things 'nature,' and soul to be later than these.
ἔοικεν δὲ οὐ κινδυνεύειν ἀλλὰ ὄντως σημαίνειν ταῦτα ἡμῖν τῷ λόγῳ. ΚΛ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν. ΑΘ. ἆρʼ οὖν πρὸς Διὸς οἷον πηγήν τινα ἀνοήτου δόξης ἀνηυρήκαμεν ἀνθρώπων ὁπόσοι πώποτε τῶν περὶ φύσεως ἐφήψαντο ζητημάτων;
Indeed, he seems not just to be in danger of doing so, but actually to mean these things to us in his argument. **CL.** Yes, certainly. **ATH.** Have we then, by Zeus, found out, as it were, a certain source of foolish opinion among as many men as have ever laid hands on inquiries concerning nature?
σκόπει πάντα λόγον ἐξετάζων· οὐ γὰρ δὴ σμικρόν γε τὸ διαφέρον, εἰ φανεῖεν οἱ λόγων ἁπτόμενοι ἀσεβῶν, ἄλλοις τε ἐξάρχοντες, μηδὲ εὖ τοῖς λόγοις ἀλλʼ ἐξημαρτημένως χρώμενοι.
Examine while investigating every argument; for indeed, the difference is not small if those who lay hands on impious arguments, and lead others in them, should appear to be using their arguments not well but erroneously.
δοκεῖ τοίνυν μοι ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχειν. ΚΛ. εὖ λέγεις· ἀλλʼ ὅπῃ, πειρῶ φράζειν. ΑΘ. ἔοικεν τοίνυν ἀηθεστέρων ἁπτέον εἶναι λόγων. ΚΛ. οὐκ ὀκνητέον, ὦ ξένε.
It seems to me, then, that these things are so. **CL.** You speak well; but try to explain how. **ATH.** It seems, then, that we must touch upon more unusual arguments. **CL.** We must not hesitate, stranger.
μανθάνω γὰρ ὡς νομοθεσίας ἐκτὸς οἰήσῃ βαίνειν, ἐὰν τῶν τοιούτων ἁπτώμεθα λόγων.
For I understand that you think you will step outside of legislation if we touch upon such arguments.
εἰ δὲ ἔστι μηδαμῇ ἑτέρως συμφωνῆσαι τοῖς νῦν κατὰ νόμον λεγομένοις θεοῖς ὡς ὀρθῶς ἔχουσιν ἢ ταύτῃ, λεκτέον, ὦ θαυμάσιε, καὶ ταύτῃ. ΑΘ. λέγοιμʼ ἄν, ὡς ἔοικεν, ἤδη σχεδὸν οὐκ εἰωθότα λόγον τινὰ τόνδε.
But if there is no other way to agree that the gods now spoken of according to law exist correctly than this way, we must speak in this way, my wonderful friend. **ATH.** I should speak, as it seems, already almost an unusual argument, this one.
ὃ πρῶτον γενέσεως καὶ φθορᾶς αἴτιον ἁπάντων, τοῦτο οὐ πρῶτον ἀλλὰ ὕστερον ἀπεφήναντο εἶναι γεγονὸς οἱ τὴν τῶν ἀσεβῶν ψυχὴν ἀπεργασάμενοι λόγοι, ὃ δὲ ὕστερον, πρότερον· ὅθεν ἡμαρτήκασι περὶ θεῶν τῆς ὄντως οὐσίας.
That which is the first cause of generation and destruction of all things, this, the arguments that have wrought the soul of the impious have declared to be not first but later in origin, and what is later to be prior; whence they have erred concerning the truly existing being of the gods.