§10.890ΑΘ. θεούς, ὦ μακάριε, εἶναι πρῶτόν φασιν οὗτοι τέχνῃ, οὐ φύσει ἀλλά τισιν νόμοις, καὶ τούτους ἄλλους ἄλλῃ, ὅπῃ ἕκαστοι ἑαυτοῖσι συνωμολόγησαν νομοθετούμενοι·
ATH. The gods, my happy friend, these men say exist first by art, not by nature but by certain laws, and these are different in different places, according to how each group agreed among themselves in making laws.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τὰ καλὰ φύσει μὲν ἄλλα εἶναι, νόμῳ δὲ ἕτερα, τὰ δὲ δὴ δίκαια οὐδʼ εἶναι τὸ παράπαν φύσει, ἀλλʼ ἀμφισβητοῦντας διατελεῖν ἀλλήλοις καὶ μετατιθεμένους ἀεὶ ταῦτα, ἃ δʼ ἂν μετάθωνται καὶ ὅταν, τότε κύρια ἕκαστα εἶναι, γιγνόμενα τέχνῃ καὶ τοῖς νόμοις ἀλλʼ οὐ δή τινι φύσει.
And furthermore, they say that what is beautiful is one thing by nature and another by law; and as for what is just, it does not exist at all by nature, but they continue to dispute with one another and are always changing these things; and whatever they change them to, and whenever they do, then each becomes valid at that time, coming into being by art and the laws, but certainly not by any nature.
ταῦτʼ ἐστίν, ὦ φίλοι, ἅπαντα ἀνδρῶν σοφῶν παρὰ νέοις ἀνθρώποις, ἰδιωτῶν τε καὶ ποιητῶν, φασκόντων εἶναι τὸ δικαιότατον ὅτι τις ἂν νικᾷ βιαζόμενος·
These, my friends, are all the views of wise men among the youth—both prose-writers and poets—who claim that the most just thing is for one to prevail by force.
ὅθεν ἀσέβειαί τε ἀνθρώποις ἐμπίπτουσιν νέοις, ὡς οὐκ ὄντων θεῶν οἵους ὁ νόμος προστάττει διανοεῖσθαι δεῖν, στάσεις τε διὰ ταῦτα ἑλκόντων πρὸς τὸν κατὰ φύσιν ὀρθὸν βίον, ὅς ἐστιν τῇ ἀληθείᾳ κρατοῦντα ζῆν τῶν ἄλλων καὶ μὴ δουλεύοντα ἑτέροισι κατὰ νόμον.
Hence impieties infect the youth, as if there were no gods such as the law commands them to believe in; and because of this, factions arise as they are drawn toward the life which is correct according to nature, which is in truth to live ruling over others and not being slaves to others according to law.
ΚΛ. οἷον διελήλυθας, ὦ ξένε, λόγον, καὶ ὅσην λώβην ἀνθρώπων νέων δημοσίᾳ πόλεσίν τε καὶ ἰδίοις οἴκοις.
CL. What a doctrine you have described, stranger, and what a ruin of young men both publicly to cities and privately to households!
ΑΘ. ἀληθῆ μέντοι λέγεις, ὦ Κλεινία.
ATH. Indeed you speak the truth, Cleinias.
τί οὖν οἴει χρῆναι δρᾶν τὸν νομοθέτην, οὕτω τούτων πάλαι παρεσκευασμένων;
What, then, do you think the lawmaker must do, since these things have been thus prepared long ago?
ἢ μόνον ἀπειλεῖν στάντα ἐν τῇ πόλει σύμπασι τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ὡς εἰ μὴ φήσουσιν εἶναι θεοὺς καὶ διανοηθήσονται δοξάζοντες τοιούτους οἵους φησὶν ὁ νόμος—καὶ περὶ καλῶν καὶ δικαίων καὶ περὶ ἁπάντων τῶν μεγίστων ὁ αὐτὸς λόγος, ὅσα δὲ πρὸς ἀρετὴν τείνει καὶ κακίαν, ὡς δεῖ ταῦτα οὕτω πράττειν διανοουμένους ὅπῃπερ ἂν ὁ νομοθέτης ὑφηγήσηται γράφων—ὃς δʼ ἂν μὴ παρέχηται ἑαυτὸν τοῖς νόμοις εὐπειθῆ, τὸν μὲν δεῖν τεθνάναι, τὸν δέ τινα πληγαῖς καὶ δεσμοῖς, τὸν δὲ ἀτιμίαις, ἄλλους δὲ πενίαις κολάζεσθαι καὶ φυγαῖς· πειθὼ δὲ τοῖς ἀνθρώποις, ἅμα τιθέντα αὐτοῖς τοὺς νόμους, μηδεμίαν ἔχειν τοῖς λόγοις προσάπτοντα εἰς δύναμιν ἡμεροῦν;
Should he only stand in the city and threaten all the people, that unless they say there are gods and think of them in belief as the law says—and the same doctrine applies to the beautiful, the just, and all the greatest matters, and as many as tend toward virtue and vice, that they must act in these matters thinking just as the lawmaker prescribes by writing—and that whoever does not show himself obedient to the laws must die, or another be punished with blows and bonds, another with loss of civil rights, and others with poverty and exile; but as for persuasion for the people, while laying down the laws for them, should he have none to attach to his words so as to civilize them as far as possible?
ΚΛ. μηδαμῶς, ὦ ξένε, ἀλλʼ εἴπερ τυγχάνει γε οὖσα καὶ σμικρὰ πειθώ τις περὶ τὰ τοιαῦτα, δεῖ μηδαμῇ κάμνειν τόν γε ἄξιον καὶ σμικροῦ νομοθέτην, ἀλλὰ πᾶσαν, τὸ λεγόμενον, φωνὴν ἱέντα, τῷ παλαιῷ νόμῳ ἐπίκουρον γίγνεσθαι λόγῳ ὡς εἰσὶν θεοὶ καὶ ὅσα νυνδὴ διῆλθες σύ, καὶ δὴ καὶ νόμῳ αὐτῷ βοηθῆσαι καὶ τέχνῃ, ὡς ἐστὸν φύσει ἢ φύσεως οὐχ ἧττον, εἴπερ νοῦ γέ ἐστιν γεννήματα κατὰ λόγον ὀρθόν, ὃν σύ τε λέγειν μοι φαίνῃ καὶ ἐγώ σοι πιστεύω τὰ νῦν.
CL. Not at all, stranger! But if indeed there happens to be even some small persuasion regarding such matters, a lawmaker worthy of even a little respect must not grow weary in any way, but, as the saying goes, "uttering every voice," he must become a helper to the ancient law by the argument that gods exist and all that you have just now described, and indeed help law itself and art, since they both exist by nature or not less than by nature, if indeed they are the offspring of intellect according to right reason, which you seem to me to be speaking of and I now believe.
ΑΘ. ὦ προθυμότατε Κλεινία, τί δʼ;
ATH. O most zealous Cleinias, but what?
οὐ χαλεπά τέ ἐστι συνακολουθεῖν λόγοις οὕτως εἰς πλήθη λεγόμενα, μήκη τε αὖ κέκτηται διωλύγια;
Is it not difficult to follow arguments spoken thus to the multitudes, and do they not also possess immense lengths?