§10.888ΑΘ. τούτων δὴ πάντων ὅσοι καταφρονήσαντες οὐδὲ ἐξ ἑνὸς ἱκανοῦ λόγου, ὡς φαῖεν ἂν ὅσοι καὶ σμικρὸν νοῦ κέκτηνται, νῦν ἀναγκάζουσιν ἡμᾶς λέγειν ἃ λέγομεν, πῶς τούτους ἄν τις ἐν πρᾳέσι λόγοις δύναιτο νουθετῶν ἅμα διδάσκειν περὶ θεῶν πρῶτον ὡς εἰσίν;
ATH. Of all these, as many as have treated the gods with contempt without even a single adequate reason—as anyone with even a little intelligence would say—and now compel us to speak what we are speaking, how could anyone, with gentle words, admonish them and at the same time teach them about the gods, first that they exist?
τολμητέον δέ· οὐ γὰρ ἅμα γε δεῖ μανῆναι τοὺς μὲν ὑπὸ λαιμαργίας ἡδονῆς ἡμῶν, τοὺς δʼ ὑπὸ τοῦ θυμοῦσθαι τοῖς τοιούτοις.
Yet we must venture; for we must not both run mad at the same time, they through greed for pleasure, and we through anger at such people.
ἴτω δὴ πρόρρησις τοιάδε τις ἄθυμος τοῖς οὕτω τὴν διάνοιαν διεφθαρμένοις, καὶ λέγωμεν πρᾴως, σβέσαντες τὸν θυμόν, ὡς ἑνὶ διαλεγόμενοι τῶν τοιούτων· ὦ παῖ, νέος εἶ, προϊὼν δέ σε ὁ χρόνος ποιήσει πολλὰ ὧν νῦν δοξάζεις μεταβαλόντα ἐπὶ τἀναντία τίθεσθαι·
Let some such anger-free address go forth to those whose minds are thus corrupted, and let us speak gently, extinguishing our anger, as if speaking to a single one of such people: "My child, you are young, and as time advances, it will make you change many of the opinions you now hold and adopt the opposite ones.
περίμεινον οὖν εἰς τότε κριτὴς περὶ τῶν μεγίστων γίγνεσθαι, μέγιστον δέ, ὃ νῦν οὐδὲν ἡγῇ σύ, τὸ περὶ τοὺς θεοὺς ὀρθῶς διανοηθέντα ζῆν καλῶς ἢ μή.
Wait, then, until that time to become a judge of the greatest matters; and the greatest, which you now consider as nothing, is to live well or not by thinking rightly about the gods.
πρῶτον δὲ περὶ αὐτῶν ἕν τι μέγα σοι μηνύων οὐκ ἄν ποτε φανείην ψευδής, τὸ τοιόνδε. οὐ σὺ μόνος οὐδὲ οἱ σοὶ φίλοι πρῶτοι καὶ πρῶτον ταύτην δόξαν περὶ θεῶν ἔσχετε, γίγνονται δὲ ἀεὶ πλείους ἢ ἐλάττους ταύτην τὴν νόσον ἔχοντες·
But in announcing to you beforehand one great truth about them, I should never appear to be false; it is this: you are not the only one, nor your friends the first, to have held this opinion about the gods; rather, there are always more or fewer who have this disease.
τόδε τοίνυν σοι, παραγεγονὼς αὐτῶν πολλοῖσι, φράζοιμʼ ἄν, τὸ μηδένα πώποτε λαβόντα ἐκ νέου ταύτην τὴν δόξαν περὶ θεῶν, ὡς οὐκ εἰσίν, διατελέσαι πρὸς γῆρας μείναντα ἐν ταύτῃ τῇ διανοήσει, τὰ δύο μέντοι πάθη περὶ θεοὺς μεῖναι, πολλοῖσι μὲν οὔ, μεῖναι δὲ οὖν τισιν, τὸ τοὺς θεοὺς εἶναι μέν, φροντίζειν δὲ οὐδὲν τῶν ἀνθρωπίνων, καὶ τὸ μετὰ τοῦτο, ὡς φροντίζουσι μέν, εὐπαραμύθητοι δʼ εἰσὶν θύμασιν καὶ εὐχαῖς.
I would tell you this, then, as one who has been present with many of them, that no one who took up this opinion about the gods from youth, that they do not exist, ever continued into old age remaining in this mind. To be sure, two other states of mind regarding the gods do remain, not with many, but yet with some: namely, that the gods indeed exist, but care nothing for human affairs; and next, that though they do care, they are easily appeased by sacrifices and prayers.
τὸ δὴ σαφὲς ἂν γενόμενόν σοι περὶ αὐτῶν κατὰ δύναμιν δόγμα, ἂν ἐμοὶ πείθῃ, περιμενεῖς, ἀνασκοπῶν εἴτε οὕτως εἴτε ἄλλως ἔχει, πυνθανόμενος παρά τε τῶν ἄλλων καὶ δὴ καὶ μάλιστα καὶ παρὰ τοῦ νομοθέτου· ἐν δὲ δὴ τούτῳ τῷ χρόνῳ μὴ τολμήσῃς περὶ θεοὺς μηδὲν ἀσεβῆσαι.
Therefore, the doctrine about them which will become clear to you as far as possible, if you obey me, you will wait for, while re-examining whether it is so or otherwise, inquiring both from others and especially from the lawmaker; and during this time, do not dare to commit any impiety regarding the gods.
πειρατέον γὰρ τῷ τοὺς νόμους σοι τιθέντι νῦν καὶ εἰς αὖθις διδάσκειν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων ὡς ἔχει.
For the one who is now laying down the laws for you must try, both now and hereafter, to teach about these very matters how they stand." CL.
ΚΛ. κάλλισθʼ ἡμῖν, ὦ ξένε, μέχρι γε τοῦ νῦν εἴρηται.
Most beautifully, stranger, has it been spoken on our part up to the present.
ΑΘ. παντάπασι μὲν οὖν, ὦ Μέγιλλέ τε καὶ Κλεινία·
ATH.
λελήθαμεν δʼ ἡμᾶς αὐτοὺς εἰς θαυμαστὸν λόγον ἐμπεπτωκότες.
Absolutely so, Megillus and Cleinias; but we have unconsciously fallen into a wondrous argument.
ΚΛ. τὸν ποῖον δὴ λέγεις;
CL. What kind do you mean?
ΑΘ. τὸν παρὰ πολλοῖς δοξαζόμενον εἶναι σοφώτατον ἁπάντων λόγων.
ATH. That which is believed by many to be the wisest of all arguments.
ΚΛ. φράζʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον.
CL. Explain yet more clearly.
ΑΘ. λέγουσί πού τινες ὡς πάντα ἐστὶ τὰ πράγματα γιγνόμενα καὶ γενόμενα καὶ γενησόμενα τὰ μὲν φύσει, τὰ δὲ τέχνῃ, τὰ δὲ διὰ τύχην.
ATH. Some say, I suppose, that all things that are coming into being, have come into being, and will come into being, exist partly by nature, partly by art, and partly by chance.
ΚΛ. οὐκοῦν καλῶς;
CL. Is that not well said?
§10.889ΑΘ. εἰκός γέ τοί που σοφοὺς ἄνδρας ὀρθῶς λέγειν·
ATH.
ἑπόμενοί γε μὴν αὐτοῖς σκεψώμεθα τοὺς ἐκεῖθεν τί ποτε καὶ τυγχάνουσι διανοούμενοι.
It is likely, at least, that wise men speak correctly; yet let us follow them and examine what on earth those of that school really have in mind.
ΚΛ. πάντως.
CL. By all means.
ΑΘ. ἔοικε, φασίν, τὰ μὲν μέγιστα αὐτῶν καὶ κάλλιστα ἀπεργάζεσθαι φύσιν καὶ τύχην, τὰ δὲ σμικρότερα τέχνην, ἣν δὴ παρὰ φύσεως λαμβάνουσαν τὴν τῶν μεγάλων καὶ πρώτων γένεσιν ἔργων, πλάττειν καὶ τεκταίνεσθαι πάντα τὰ σμικρότερα, ἃ δὴ τεχνικὰ πάντες προσαγορεύομεν.
ATH. It seems, they say, that the greatest and most beautiful things are produced by nature and chance, and the smaller things by art, which, receiving from nature the generation of the great and primary works, shapes and fashions all the smaller ones, which we all call artistic.
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CL. How do you mean?
ΑΘ. ὧδʼ ἔτι σαφέστερον ἐρῶ.
ATH. I will explain yet more clearly.
πῦρ καὶ ὕδωρ καὶ γῆν καὶ ἀέρα φύσει πάντα εἶναι καὶ τύχῃ φασίν, τέχνῃ δὲ οὐδὲν τούτων, καὶ τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα αὖ σώματα, γῆς τε καὶ ἡλίου καὶ σελήνης ἄστρων τε πέρι, διὰ τούτων γεγονέναι παντελῶς ὄντων ἀψύχων·
They say that fire, water, earth, and air all exist by nature and chance, and none of them by art, and that the bodies which come after these—namely, of the earth, sun, moon, and stars—have come into being through these, which are completely soulless.
τύχῃ δὲ φερόμενα τῇ τῆς δυνάμεως ἕκαστα ἑκάστων, ᾗ συμπέπτωκεν ἁρμόττοντα οἰκείως πως, θερμὰ ψυχροῖς ἢ ξηρὰ πρὸς ὑγρὰ καὶ μαλακὰ πρὸς σκληρά, καὶ πάντα ὁπόσα τῇ τῶν ἐναντίων κράσει κατὰ τύχην ἐξ ἀνάγκης συνεκεράσθη, ταύτῃ καὶ κατὰ ταῦτα οὕτως γεγεννηκέναι τόν τε οὐρανὸν ὅλον καὶ πάντα ὁπόσα κατʼ οὐρανόν, καὶ ζῷα αὖ καὶ φυτὰ σύμπαντα, ὡρῶν πασῶν ἐκ τούτων γενομένων, οὐ δὲ διὰ νοῦν, φασίν, οὐδὲ διά τινα θεὸν οὐδὲ διὰ τέχνην ἀλλά, ὃ λέγομεν, φύσει καὶ τύχῃ.
And being carried along by the chance of their respective power, just as they happened to fit together in some suitable way—hot with cold, or dry with moist, and soft with hard, and all such things as were mingled by necessity according to chance by the mixing of contraries—in this way and by these means they have generated the whole heaven and everything in heaven, and moreover all animals and plants, all the seasons having come from these; not through intellect, they say, nor through any god, nor through art, but, as we say, by nature and chance.
τέχνην δὲ ὕστερον ἐκ τούτων ὑστέραν γενομένην, αὐτὴν θνητὴν ἐκ θνητῶν ὕστερα γεγεννηκέναι παιδιάς τινας, ἀληθείας οὐ σφόδρα μετεχούσας, ἀλλὰ εἴδωλʼ ἄττα συγγενῆ ἑαυτῶν, οἷʼ ἡ γραφικὴ γεννᾷ καὶ μουσικὴ καὶ ὅσαι ταύταις εἰσὶν συνέριθοι τέχναι·
And art, coming later from these, being itself mortal and born of mortal things, later generated certain playthings not sharing much in truth, but some images akin to themselves, such as painting and music and whatever arts are co-workers with them.
αἳ δέ τι καὶ σπουδαῖον ἄρα γεννῶσι τῶν τεχνῶν, εἶναι ταύτας ὁπόσαι τῇ φύσει ἐκοίνωσαν τὴν αὑτῶν δύναμιν, οἷον αὖ ἰατρικὴ καὶ γεωργικὴ καὶ γυμναστική.
And if there are indeed any arts that generate something of serious worth, they are those which share their power with nature, such as medicine, agriculture, and gymnastics.
καὶ δὴ καὶ τὴν πολιτικὴν σμικρόν τι μέρος εἶναί φασιν κοινωνοῦν φύσει, τέχνῃ δὲ τὸ πολύ, οὕτω δὲ καὶ τὴν νομοθεσίαν πᾶσαν οὐ φύσει, τέχνῃ δέ, ἧς οὐκ ἀληθεῖς εἶναι τὰς θέσεις.
And indeed they say that politics shares only a small part with nature, but mostly with art, and likewise all legislation is not by nature, but by art, whose positions are not true.
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CL. How do you mean?