Humanitext Reader

Plato · Laws §10.887

Decision to Prove the Gods' Existence in the Prelude

Passage 142 of 186 · Greek

Summary

The Athenian asks whether they should proceed directly to legislation or first prove the existence of the gods in a lengthy prelude, and Cleinias chooses the latter. The Athenian begins the discourse with indignation toward those who deny the gods despite witnessing their parents' piety since childhood.

§10.887ΑΘ. τί οὖν δή;
ATH. What then indeed?
τί λέγομεν;
What do we say?
τί χρὴ δρᾶν ἡμᾶς;
What must we do?
πότερον ἀπολογησώμεθα οἷον κατηγορήσαντός τινος ἐν ἀσεβέσιν ἀνθρώποις ἡμῶν, φεύγουσι περὶ τῆς νομοθεσίας λέγουσιν ὡς δεινὰ ἐργαζόμεθα νομοθετοῦντες ὡς ὄντων θεῶν;
Should we make our defense, as if someone had accused us among impious men, who flee from court regarding legislation, saying that we are doing terrible things by legislating on the assumption that gods exist?
ἢ χαίρειν ἐάσαντες ἐπὶ τοὺς νόμους τρεπώμεθα πάλιν, μὴ καὶ τὸ προοίμιον ἡμῖν μακρότερον γίγνηται τῶν νόμων;
Or should we let these things go and turn back to the laws, lest our prelude should become longer than the laws themselves?
οὐ γάρ τι βραχὺς ὁ λόγος ἐκταθεὶς ἂν γίγνοιτο, εἰ τοῖσιν ἐπιθυμοῦσιν ἀσεβεῖν τὰ μὲν ἀποδείξαιμεν μετρίως τοῖς λόγοις ὧν ἔφραζον δεῖν πέρι λέγειν, τὸν δὲ εἰς φόβον τρέψαιμεν, τὰ δὲ δυσχεραίνειν ποιήσαντες, ὅσα πρέπει μετὰ ταῦτα ἤδη νομοθετοῖμεν.
For the argument, if extended, would not be at all short, if we should reasonably demonstrate with arguments to those who desire to be impious the things about which I said we must speak, and turn some of them to fear, and make others feel aversion, and only then legislate what is appropriate after these things.
ΚΛ. ἀλλʼ, ὦ ξένε, πολλάκις μὲν ὥς γε ἐν ὀλίγῳ χρόνῳ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ εἰρήκαμεν, ὡς οὐδὲν ἐν τῷ παρόντι δεῖ προτιμᾶν βραχυλογίαν μᾶλλον ἢ μῆκος—οὐδεὶς γὰρ ἡμᾶς, τὸ λεγόμενον, ἐπείγων διώκει—γελοῖον δὴ καὶ φαῦλον τὸ πρὸ τῶν βελτίστων τὰ βραχύτερα αἱρουμένους φαίνεσθαι.
CL. But, stranger, we have often said this very thing in a short space of time, that there is no need at present to prefer brevity to length—for no one, as the saying goes, is pursuing us in haste—and indeed it would be ridiculous and base to appear to choose the shorter over the best.
διαφέρει δʼ οὐ σμικρὸν ἁμῶς γέ πως πιθανότητά τινα τοὺς λόγους ἡμῶν ἔχειν, ὡς θεοί τʼ εἰσὶν καὶ ἀγαθοί, δίκην τιμῶντες διαφερόντως ἀνθρώπων· σχεδὸν γὰρ τοῦτο ἡμῖν ὑπὲρ ἁπάντων τῶν νόμων κάλλιστόν τε καὶ ἄριστον προοίμιον ἂν εἴη.
And it makes no small difference that our arguments should have some persuasiveness in one way or another, showing that gods exist and are good, honoring justice exceptionally beyond men; for this would be, for us, on behalf of all the laws, the most beautiful and best prelude.
μηδὲν οὖν δυσχεράναντες μηδὲ ἐπειχθέντες, ἥντινά ποτε ἔχομεν δύναμιν εἰς πειθὼ τῶν τοιούτων λόγων, μηδὲν ἀποθέμενοι διεξέλθωμεν εἰς τὸ δυνατὸν ἱκανῶς.
Therefore, without being annoyed or in a hurry, let us exhaustively go through, as far as possible, whatever power we have for persuasion in such arguments, holding nothing back.
ΑΘ. εὐχήν μοι δοκεῖ παρακαλεῖν ὁ λεγόμενος ὑπὸ σοῦ νῦν λόγος, ἐπειδὴ προθύμως συντείνεις· μέλλειν δὲ οὐκέτι ἐγχωρεῖ λέγειν.
ATH. The argument now spoken by you seems to me to call for a prayer, since you are eagerly urging me on; and it is no longer permitted to speak of delaying.
φέρε δή, πῶς ἄν τις μὴ θυμῷ λέγοι περὶ θεῶν ὡς εἰσίν;
Come then, how could anyone speak without anger about the gods, that they exist?
ἀνάγκη γὰρ δὴ χαλεπῶς φέρειν καὶ μισεῖν ἐκείνους οἳ τούτων ἡμῖν αἴτιοι τῶν λόγων γεγένηνται καὶ γίγνονται νῦν, οὐ πειθόμενοι τοῖς μύθοις οὓς ἐκ νέων παίδων ἔτι ἐν γάλαξι τρεφόμενοι τροφῶν τε ἤκουον καὶ μητέρων, οἷον ἐν ἐπῳδαῖς μετά τε παιδιᾶς καὶ μετὰ σπουδῆς λεγομένων καὶ μετὰ θυσιῶν ἐν εὐχαῖς αὐτοὺς ἀκούοντές τε, καὶ ὄψεις ὁρῶντες ἑπομένας αὐτοῖς ἃς ἥδιστα ὅ γε νέος ὁρᾷ τε καὶ ἀκούει πραττομένας θυόντων, ἐν σπουδῇ τῇ μεγίστῃ τοὺς αὑτῶν γονέας ὑπὲρ αὑτῶν τε καὶ ἐκείνων ἐσπουδακότας, ὡς ὅτι μάλιστα οὖσιν θεοῖς εὐχαῖς προσδιαλεγομένους καὶ ἱκετείαις, ἀνατέλλοντός τε ἡλίου καὶ σελήνης καὶ πρὸς δυσμὰς ἰόντων προκυλίσεις ἅμα καὶ προσκυνήσεις ἀκούοντές τε καὶ ὁρῶντες Ἑλλήνων τε καὶ βαρβάρων πάντων ἐν συμφοραῖς παντοίαις ἐχομένων καὶ ἐν εὐπραγίαις, οὐχ ὡς οὐκ ὄντων ἀλλʼ ὡς ὅτι μάλιστα ὄντων καὶ οὐδαμῇ ὑποψίαν ἐνδιδόντων ὡς οὐκ εἰσὶν θεοί—
For it is indeed necessary to be vexed and to hate those who have been and are now the causes of these arguments for us, because they are not persuaded by the myths which they heard from their nurses and mothers while still being nourished on milk as young children, spoken as it were in charms, both with playfulness and with seriousness, and hearing them in prayers with sacrifices, and seeing accompanying sights which a youth most gladly sees and hears performed by those who sacrifice, their own parents in the greatest seriousness behaving earnestly on behalf of themselves and those children, conversing in prayers and supplications with the gods as existing in the highest degree, and hearing and seeing the prostrations and worship of all Greeks and barbarians alike as the sun and moon rise and set, in all kinds of misfortunes and successes, not as though they do not exist but as existing in the highest degree and in no way giving rise to a suspicion that there are no gods—

Notes

  1. 10.887aφεύγουσι — Dative plural of the present participle `φεύγων` ('fleeing' or 'acting as defendant'), modifying the noun `ἀνθρώποις` in the preceding prepositional phrase `ἐν ἀσεβέσιν ἀνθρώποις`. The subsequent participle `λέγουσιν` is also in the dative plural, coordinate with it.
  2. 10.887dοὐ πειθόμενοι — Anacoluthon (grammatical inconsistency). Syntactically, it should agree with the preceding accusative `ἐκείνους` (the objects of hatred), but it is expressed as a nominative plural participle as if it were the subject of the clause, highlighting the active state of the impious.
  3. 10.887eτοὺς αὑτῶν γονέας ... ἐσπουδακότας — A participial construction of perception subordinate to `ἀκούοντές τε, καὶ ὄψεις ὁρῶντες` ('hearing and seeing sights') in 887d, where `τοὺς αὑτῶν γονέας` ('their own parents') acts as the subject and `ἐσπουδακότας` ('having behaved earnestly') and `προσδιαλεγομένους` ('conversing') serve as predicative participles.

Cite this passage

Plato, Laws §10.887. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg034.humanitext-grc2:10.887

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