Humanitext Reader

Plato · Laws §10.886

Proofs of the Gods and the Danger of Materialist Atheism

Passage 141 of 186 · Greek

Summary

While Cleinias presents natural phenomena and universal belief as easy proofs of the gods' existence, the Athenian points out that a dangerous form of ignorance mistaken for wisdom (materialistic natural philosophy) is the true cause of atheism, promoted by ancient myths and modern pseudo-wise arguments.

§10.886ΚΛ. οὐκοῦν, ὦ ξένε, δοκεῖ ῥᾴδιον εἶναι ἀληθεύοντας λέγειν ὡς εἰσὶν θεοί;
CL. Does it not seem easy then, stranger, to state, while speaking the truth, that there are gods?
ΑΘ. πῶς;
ATH. How so?
ΚΛ. πρῶτον μὲν γῆ καὶ ἥλιος ἄστρα τε καὶ τὰ σύμπαντα, καὶ τὰ τῶν ὡρῶν διακεκοσμημένα καλῶς οὕτως, ἐνιαυτοῖς τε καὶ μησὶν διειλημμένα· καὶ ὅτι πάντες Ἕλληνές τε καὶ βάρβαροι νομίζουσιν εἶναι θεούς.
CL. In the first place, the earth, the sun, the stars, and the whole universe, and the seasons so beautifully ordered, divided by years and months; and also that all Greeks and barbarians believe that there are gods.
ΑΘ. φοβοῦμαί γε, ὦ μακάριε, τοὺς μοχθηρούς—οὐ γὰρ δή ποτε εἴποιμʼ ἂν ὥς γε αἰδοῦμαι—μή πως ἡμῶν καταφρονήσωσιν.
ATH. My dear friend, I fear the wicked—for I would certainly never say that I stand in awe of them—lest they should somehow look down on us.
ὑμεῖς μὲν γὰρ οὐκ ἴστε αὐτῶν πέρι τὴν τῆς διαφορᾶς αἰτίαν, ἀλλʼ ἡγεῖσθε ἀκρατείᾳ μόνον ἡδονῶν τε καὶ ἐπιθυμιῶν ἐπὶ τὸν ἀσεβῆ βίον ὁρμᾶσθαι τὰς ψυχὰς αὐτῶν.
For you do not know the cause of the disagreement among them, but you believe that their souls are driven to the impious life solely by lack of control over pleasures and desires.
ΚΛ. τὸ δὲ τί πρὸς τούτοις αἴτιον ἄν, ὦ ξένε, εἴη;
CL. What other cause besides these, stranger, could there be?
ΑΘ. σχεδὸν ὃ παντάπασιν ὑμεῖς ἔξω ζῶντες οὐκ ἂν εἰδείητε, ἀλλὰ ὑμᾶς ἂν λανθάνοι.
ATH. Something that you, living completely outside, would probably not know, but which would escape your notice.
ΚΛ. τί δὴ τοῦτο φράζεις τὰ νῦν;
CL. What indeed do you mean by this now?
ΑΘ. ἀμαθία τις μάλα χαλεπή, δοκοῦσα εἶναι μεγίστη φρόνησις.
ATH. A certain very troublesome ignorance, which is thought to be the greatest wisdom.
ΚΛ. πῶς λέγεις;
CL. How do you mean?
ΑΘ. εἰσὶν ἡμῖν ἐν γράμμασιν λόγοι κείμενοι, οἳ παρʼ ὑμῖν οὐκ εἰσὶν διʼ ἀρετὴν πολιτείας, ὡς ἐγὼ μανθάνω, οἱ μὲν ἔν τισι μέτροις, οἱ δὲ καὶ ἄνευ μέτρων λέγοντες περὶ θεῶν, οἱ μὲν παλαιότατοι ὡς γέγονεν ἡ πρώτη φύσις οὐρανοῦ τῶν τε ἄλλων, προϊόντες δὲ τῆς ἀρχῆς οὐ πολὺ θεογονίαν διεξέρχονται, γενόμενοί τε ὡς πρὸς ἀλλήλους ὡμίλησαν·
ATH. We have writings containing discourses which do not exist among you because of the excellence of your constitution, as I understand; some of them speaking of the gods in some kind of meter, and others without meter. The oldest of these tell how the first nature of heaven and other things came to be, and proceeding not far from the beginning they detail the genealogy of the gods, and how, having been born, they associated with one another.
ἃ τοῖς ἀκούουσιν εἰ μὲν εἰς ἄλλο τι καλῶς ἢ μὴ καλῶς ἔχει, οὐ ῥᾴδιον ἐπιτιμᾶν παλαιοῖς οὖσιν, εἰς μέντοι γονέων τε θεραπείας καὶ τιμὰς οὐκ ἂν ἔγωγέ ποτε ἐπαινῶν εἴποιμι οὔτε ὡς ὠφέλιμα οὔτε ὡς τὸ παράπαν ὄντως εἴρηται.
Whether these, for those who hear them, are good or not in other respects is not easy to censure since they are ancient; however, regarding the care and honor of parents, I would never praise them or say that they are beneficial or that they are spoken in truth at all.
τὰ μὲν οὖν δὴ τῶν ἀρχαίων πέρι μεθείσθω καὶ χαιρέτω, καὶ ὅπῃ θεοῖσιν φίλον, λεγέσθω ταύτῃ· τὰ δὲ τῶν νέων ἡμῖν καὶ σοφῶν αἰτιαθήτω ὅπῃ κακῶν αἴτια.
Therefore, let the matters of the ancients be dismissed and bid farewell, and let them be spoken of in whatever way is pleasing to the gods; but let the writings of our modern wise men be blamed for how they are causes of evils.
τόδε οὖν οἱ τῶν τοιούτων ἐξεργάζονται λόγοι· ἐμοῦ γὰρ καὶ σοῦ, ὅταν τεκμήρια λέγωμεν ὡς εἰσὶν θεοί, ταῦτα αὐτὰ προφέροντες, ἥλιόν τε καὶ σελήνην καὶ ἄστρα καὶ γῆν ὡς θεοὺς καὶ θεῖα ὄντα, ὑπὸ τῶν σοφῶν τούτων ἀναπεπεισμένοι ἂν λέγοιεν ὡς γῆν τε καὶ λίθους ὄντα αὐτὰ καὶ οὐδὲν τῶν ἀνθρωπείων πραγμάτων φροντίζειν δυνάμενα, λόγοισι δὲ ταῦτα εὖ πως εἰς τὸ πιθανὸν περιπεπεμμένα.
This, then, is what the discourses of such men bring about: for when you and I speak of proofs that there are gods, adducing these very things—the sun, the moon, the stars, and the earth—as being gods and divine, those who have been persuaded by these wise men would say that they are merely earth and stones, incapable of caring for any of human affairs, and that these things have been plausibly wrapped up by arguments.
ΚΛ. χαλεπόν γε λόγον, ὦ ξένε, εἰρηκὼς τυγχάνεις, εἴ γε εἷς ἦν μόνον· νῦν δὲ ὅτε πάμπολλοι τυγχάνουσιν, ἔτι χαλεπώτερον ἂν εἴη.
CL. You happen to have stated a difficult argument, stranger, even if there were only one; but now, when there happen to be so many, it would be still more difficult.

Notes

  1. 886aἀληθεύοντας — Accusative masculine plural of the present active participle. It modifies the implied subject of the infinitive 'λέγειν' (to say/state) dependent on the impersonal construction 'δοκεῖ ῥᾴδιον εἶναι' (it seems to be easy), where the subject of the infinitive is regularly placed in the accusative case. It means 'while speaking the truth'.
  2. 886aοὐ γὰρ δή ποτε εἴποιμʼ ἂν ὥς γε αἰδοῦμαι — A parenthetical disclaimer inserted by the speaker to prevent his use of the verb 'φοβοῦμαι' (I fear/am afraid) from being misinterpreted as feeling awe or reverence (αἰδώς) toward the wicked. Using the potential optative 'ἂν εἴποιμι', it translates as 'for I would certainly never say that I stand in awe of them'.
  3. 886dπροφέροντες — An instance of grammatical anacoluthon. Corresponding to the genitive 'ἐμοῦ γὰρ καὶ σοῦ' (for when you and I...) at the beginning of the sentence, one would expect a genitive participle 'προφερόντων'. Instead, the nominative plural 'προφέροντες' is used, because the speakers' minds are focused on being the subjects of the 'ὅταν λέγωμεν' clause, leading to a shift in grammatical construction.
  4. 886eπεριπεπεμμένα — Perfect passive participle of 'περιπέσσω' (to wrap around, disguise, dress up, cook up). Here, it carries a negative, sarcastic tone, implying that celestial objects, which are actually nothing but 'earth and stones', have been 'plausibly cooked up or wrapped up' by the arguments of natural philosophers. While some take it from 'περιπέμπω' (to send round), the former derivation meaning 'dressed up plausibly by words' fits the context best.

Cite this passage

Plato, Laws §10.886. Humanitext Reader, https://reader.humanitext.ai/en/text/urn:cts:greekLit:tlg0059.tlg034.humanitext-grc2:10.886

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