§1.641ΑΘ. ἢ οὐ συννοεῖς τοῦθʼ, ὅτι μεθύων κυβερνήτης καὶ πᾶς παντὸς ἄρχων ἀνατρέπει πάντα εἴτε πλοῖα εἴτε ἅρματα εἴτε στρατόπεδον, εἴθʼ ὅτι ποτʼ εἴη τὸ κυβερνώμενον ὑπʼ αὐτοῦ;
ATH. Athenian: Or do you not reflect on this, that a drunken pilot and indeed any ruler of anything upsets everything, whether they be ships or chariots or an army, or whatever indeed it may be that is steered by him?
ΚΛ. παντάπασιν τοῦτό γε ἀληθὲς εἴρηκας, ὦ ξένε·
CL. Cleinias: What you have said is entirely true, O stranger.
τοὐπὶ τῷδε δʼ ἡμῖν λέγε, τί ποτε, ἂν γίγνηται τοῦτο ὀρθὸν τὸ περὶ τὰς πόσεις νόμιμον, ἀγαθὸν ἂν δράσειεν ἡμᾶς;
But tell us what follows: what good would it do us if this custom concerning drinking should be conducted correctly?
οἷον, ὃ νυνδὴ ἐλέγομεν, εἰ στράτευμα ὀρθῆς ἡγεμονίας τυγχάνοι, νίκη πολέμου τοῖς ἑπομένοις ἂν γίγνοιτο, οὐ σμικρὸν ἀγαθόν, καὶ τἆλλʼ οὕτω· συμποσίου δὲ ὀρθῶς παιδαγωγηθέντος τί μέγα ἰδιώταις ἢ τῇ πόλει γίγνοιτʼ ἄν;
Just as we were saying just now, if an army should meet with correct leadership, victory in war would come to those who follow, which is no small good, and other things likewise; but if a drinking party is correctly guided, what great benefit would come to individuals or to the state?
ΑΘ. τί δέ;
ATH. Athenian: What then?
παιδὸς ἑνὸς ἢ καὶ χοροῦ παιδαγωγηθέντος κατὰ τρόπον ἑνός, τί μέγα τῇ πόλει φαῖμεν ἂν γίγνεσθαι;
If one child, or even one chorus, were guided in a fitting manner, what great benefit should we say would arise for the state?
ἢ τοῦτο οὕτως ἐρωτηθέντες εἴποιμεν ἂν ὡς ἑνὸς μὲν βραχύ τι τῇ πόλει γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὄφελος, εἰ δʼ ὅλως ἐρωτᾷς παιδείαν τῶν παιδευθέντων τί μέγα τὴν πόλιν ὀνίνησιν, οὐ χαλεπὸν εἰπεῖν ὅτι παιδευθέντες μὲν εὖ γίγνοιντʼ ἂν ἄνδρες ἀγαθοί, γενόμενοι δὲ τοιοῦτοι τά τε ἄλλα πράττοιεν καλῶς, ἔτι δὲ κἂν νικῷεν τοὺς πολεμίους μαχόμενοι.
Or, if we were asked this in this way, should we say that from one child a small benefit indeed would arise for the state, but if you ask generally what great benefit education of the educated confers on the state, it is not difficult to say that, being well educated, they would become good men, and having become such, they would both perform other things well, and moreover would even conquer their enemies in battle?
παιδεία μὲν οὖν φέρει καὶ νίκην, νίκη δʼ ἐνίοτε ἀπαιδευσίαν· πολλοὶ γὰρ ὑβριστότεροι διὰ πολέμων νίκας γενόμενοι μυρίων ἄλλων κακῶν διʼ ὕβριν ἐνεπλήσθησαν, καὶ παιδεία μὲν οὐδεπώποτε γέγονεν Καδμεία, νῖκαι δὲ ἀνθρώποις πολλαὶ δὴ τοιαῦται γεγόνασίν τε καὶ ἔσονται.
Education indeed brings also victory, but victory sometimes brings lack of education; for many, having become more insolent because of victories in wars, have been filled with countless other evils through their insolence, and education has never yet become "Cadmean," but many such victories have indeed happened to men and will happen again.
ΚΛ. δοκεῖς ἡμῖν, ὦ φίλε, τὴν ἐν τοῖς οἴνοις κοινὴν διατριβὴν ὡς εἰς παιδείας μεγάλην μοῖραν τείνουσαν λέγειν, ἂν ὀρθῶς γίγνηται.
CL. Cleinias: You seem to us, O friend, to say that the common pastime in wine-drinking tends toward a great part of education, if it is conducted correctly.
ΑΘ. τί μήν;
ATH. Athenian: Indeed, what else?
ΚΛ. ἔχοις ἂν οὖν τὸ μετὰ τοῦτʼ εἰπεῖν ὡς ἔστιν τὸ νῦν εἰρημένον ἀληθές;
CL. Cleinias: Would you then be able, after this, to tell how what has now been said is true?
ΑΘ. τὸ μὲν ἀληθές, ὦ ξένε, διισχυρίζεσθαι ταῦτα οὕτως ἔχειν, πολλῶν ἀμφισβητούντων, θεοῦ· εἰ δʼ ὅπῃ ἐμοὶ φαίνεται δεῖ λέγειν, οὐδεὶς φθόνος, ἐπείπερ ὡρμήκαμέν γε τοὺς λόγους περὶ νόμων καὶ πολιτείας ποιεῖσθαι τὰ νῦν.
ATH. Athenian: To assert strongly that these things are so in truth, O stranger, when many dispute them, belongs to a god; but if it is necessary to speak of how it appears to me, there is no grudge, especially since we have set out to hold our discussions concerning laws and the constitution at present.
ΚΛ. τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ δὴ πειρώμεθα, τὸ σοὶ δοκοῦν περὶ τῶν νῦν ἀμφισβητουμένων καταμαθεῖν.
CL. Cleinias: Let us then try to understand this very thing: your opinion concerning the things now in dispute.
ΑΘ. ἀλλὰ χρὴ ποιεῖν οὕτως, ὑμᾶς τε ἐπὶ τὸ μαθεῖν καὶ ἐμὲ ἐπὶ τὸ δηλῶσαι πειρώμενον ἁμῶς γέ πως, συντεῖναι, τὸν λόγον. πρῶτον δέ μου ἀκούσατε τὸ τοιόνδε. τὴν πόλιν ἅπαντες ἡμῶν Ἕλληνες ὑπολαμβάνουσιν ὡς φιλόλογός τέ ἐστι καὶ πολύλογος, Λακεδαίμονα δὲ καὶ Κρήτην, τὴν μὲν βραχύλογον, τὴν δὲ πολύνοιαν μᾶλλον ἢ πολυλογίαν ἀσκοῦσαν·
ATH. Athenian: Well, we must do so, with you aiming to learn and me trying to explain in some way or other, straining our argument together. But first, hear this from me: all of us Greeks suppose that our city is both a lover of speech and full of words, but Lacedaemon and Crete, the former being brief in speech, and the latter practicing abundance of thought rather than abundance of words.
§1.642ΑΘ. σκοπῶ δὴ μὴ δόξαν ὑμῖν παράσχωμαι περὶ σμικροῦ πολλὰ λέγειν, μέθης πέρι, σμικροῦ πράγματος, παμμήκη λόγον ἀνακαθαιρόμενος.
ATH. Athenian: I am indeed considering lest I present you with the appearance of saying many things about a small matter, and of clearing up an exceedingly long argument about drunkenness—a small thing.
τὸ δὲ ἡ κατὰ φύσιν αὐτοῦ διόρθωσις οὐκ ἂν δύναιτο ἄνευ μουσικῆς ὀρθότητός ποτε σαφὲς οὐδὲ ἱκανὸν ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ἀπολαβεῖν, μουσικὴ δὲ ἄνευ παιδείας τῆς πάσης οὐκ ἂν αὖ ποτε δύναιτο· ταῦτα δὲ παμπόλλων ἐστὶν λόγων.
Yet its natural correction would never be able to obtain a clear or sufficient treatment in our discussions without the correctness of music, and music in turn could never do so without the whole of education; and these things require very many arguments.
ὁρᾶτε οὖν τί ποιῶμεν εἰ ταῦτα μὲν ἐάσαιμεν ἐν τῷ παρόντι, μετεκβαῖμεν δʼ εἰς ἕτερόν τινα νόμων πέρι λόγον.
See then what we should do, whether we should let these things go for the present, and change over to some other discussion concerning laws.
ΜΕ. ὦ ξένε Ἀθηναῖε, οὐκ οἶσθʼ ἴσως ὅτι τυγχάνει ἡμῶν ἡ ἑστία τῆς πόλεως οὖσα ὑμῶν πρόξενος.
ME. Megillus: O Athenian stranger, you perhaps do not know that the hearth of our state happens to be the proxenos of yours.
ἴσως μὲν οὖν καὶ πᾶσιν τοῖς παισίν, ἐπειδὰν ἀκούσωσιν ὅτι τινός εἰσιν πόλεως πρόξενοι, ταύτῃ τις εὔνοια ἐκ νέων εὐθὺς ἐνδύεται ἕκαστον ἡμῶν τῶν προξένων τῇ πόλει, ὡς δευτέρᾳ οὔσῃ πατρίδι μετὰ τὴν αὑτοῦ πόλιν· καὶ δὴ καὶ ἐμοὶ νῦν ταὐτὸν τοῦτο ἐγγέγονεν.
Perhaps, then, for all children, as soon as they hear that they are proxenoi of some state, a certain goodwill toward that state immediately clothes each of us proxenoi from our youth, as though it were a second homeland after one's own city; and indeed this very same thing has happened to me now.
ἀκούων γὰρ τῶν παίδων εὐθύς, εἴ τι μέμφοιντο ἢ καὶ ἐπαινοῖεν Λακεδαιμόνιοι Ἀθηναίους, ὡς
ἡ πόλις ὑμῶν, ὦ Μέγιλλε,
ἔφασαν,
ἡμᾶς οὐ καλῶς ἢ καλῶς ἔρρεξε
—ταῦτα δὴ ἀκούων, καὶ μαχόμενος πρὸς αὐτὰ ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἀεὶ πρὸς τοὺς τὴν πόλιν εἰς ψόγον ἄγοντας, πᾶσαν εὔνοιαν ἔσχον, καί μοι νῦν ἥ τε φωνὴ προσφιλὴς ὑμῶν, τό τε ὑπὸ πολλῶν λεγόμενον, ὡς ὅσοι Ἀθηναίων εἰσὶν ἀγαθοὶ διαφερόντως εἰσὶν τοιοῦτοι, δοκεῖ ἀληθέστατα λέγεσθαι· μόνοι γὰρ ἄνευ ἀνάγκης αὐτοφυῶς, θείᾳ μοίρᾳ ἀληθῶς καὶ οὔτι πλαστῶς εἰσιν ἀγαθοί.
For from my childhood, whenever Lacedaemonians blamed or praised Athenians, I would hear them say: "Your city, O Megillus, did not treat us well," or "did treat us well"—hearing these things, indeed, and always fighting against them on your behalf against those who brought your city into censure, I conceived all goodwill toward you, and now both your speech is dear to me, and that which is said by many—that as many of the Athenians as are good are exceptionally so—seems to be said most truly; for they alone are good without compulsion, by nature, by divine dispensation, truly and not fictitiously.
θαρρῶν δὴ ἐμοῦ γε ἕνεκα λέγοις ἂν τοσαῦτα ὁπόσα σοι φίλον.
Therefore, rest assured, as far as I am concerned, you may say as much as you please.
ΚΛ. καὶ μήν, ὦ ξένε, καὶ τὸν παρʼ ἐμοῦ λόγον ἀκούσας τε καὶ ἀποδεξάμενος, θαρρῶν ὁπόσα βούλει λέγε.
CL. Cleinias: And indeed, O stranger, when you have heard and accepted the word from me as well, speak with confidence as much as you wish.
τῇδε γὰρ ἴσως ἀκήκοας ὡς Ἐπιμενίδης γέγονεν ἀνὴρ θεῖος, ὃς ἦν ἡμῖν οἰκεῖος, ἐλθὼν δὲ πρὸ τῶν Περσικῶν δέκα ἔτεσιν πρότερον παρʼ ὑμᾶς κατὰ τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ μαντείαν, θυσίας τε ἐθύσατό τινας ἃς ὁ θεὸς ἀνεῖλεν, καὶ δὴ καὶ φοβουμένων τὸν Περσικὸν Ἀθηναίων στόλον, εἶπεν ὅτι δέκα μὲν ἐτῶν οὐχ ἥξουσιν, ὅταν δὲ ἔλθωσιν, ἀπαλλαγήσονται πράξαντες οὐδὲν ὧν ἤλπιζον, παθόντες τε ἢ δράσαντες πλείω κακά.
For you have perhaps heard how Epimenides, a divine man, arose among us, who was our kinsman, and who, coming to you ten years before the Persian Wars according to the oracle of the god, offered certain sacrifices which the god prescribed, and moreover, when the Athenians were fearing the Persian expedition, he said that they would not come for ten years, and when they did come, they would depart having accomplished none of the things they hoped for, but having suffered more evils than they inflicted.