§1.639ΜΕ. καὶ μὴν εἴ τινα ἔχομεν ὀρθὴν σκέψιν τῶν τοιούτων, οὐκ ἀποκνητέον ἀκούειν. ΑΘ. σκεψώμεθα δή πῃ τῇδε.
ME. Megillus: And indeed, if we have any correct way of examining such things, we must not shrink from listening to it.\nATH. Athenian: Let us then examine it in some such way.
φέρε, εἴ τις αἰγῶν τροφήν, καὶ τὸ ζῷον αὐτὸ κτῆμα ὡς ἔστιν καλόν, ἐπαινοῖ, ἄλλος δέ τις ἑωρακὼς αἶγας χωρὶς νεμομένας αἰπόλου ἐν ἐργασίμοις χωρίοις δρώσας κακὰ διαψέγοι, καὶ πᾶν θρέμμα ἄναρχον ἢ μετὰ κακῶν ἀρχόντων ἰδὼν οὕτω μέμφοιτο, τὸν τοῦ τοιούτου ψόγον ἡγούμεθα ὑγιὲς ἄν ποτε ψέξαι καὶ ὁτιοῦν; ΜΕ. καὶ πῶς; ΑΘ. χρηστὸς δὲ ἄρχων ἔσθʼ ἡμῖν ἐν πλοίοις πότερον ἐὰν τὴν ναυτικὴν ἔχῃ ἐπιστήμην μόνον, ἄντʼ οὖν ναυτιᾷ ἄντε μή, ἢ πῶς ἂν λέγοιμεν; ΜΕ. οὐδαμῶς, ἄν γε πρὸς τῇ τέχνῃ ἔχῃ καὶ τοῦτο τὸ πάθος ὃ λέγεις. ΑΘ. τί δʼ ἄρχων στρατοπέδων; ἆρʼ ἐὰν τὴν πολεμικὴν ἔχῃ ἐπιστήμην, ἱκανὸς ἄρχειν, κἂν δειλὸς ὢν ἐν τοῖς δεινοῖς ὑπὸ μέθης τοῦ φόβου ναυτιᾷ; ΜΕ. καὶ πῶς; ΑΘ. ἂν δὲ αὖ μήτε ἔχῃ τὴν τέχνην δειλός τε ᾖ; ΜΕ. παντάπασίν τινα πονηρὸν λέγεις, καὶ οὐδαμῶς ἀνδρῶν ἄρχοντα ἀλλά τινων σφόδρα γυναικῶν. ΑΘ. τί δʼ ἐπαινέτην ἢ ψέκτην κοινωνίας ἡστινοσοῦν ᾗ πέφυκέν τε ἄρχων εἶναι μετʼ ἐκείνου τε ὠφέλιμός ἐστιν, ὁ δὲ μήτε ἑωρακὼς εἴη ποτʼ ὀρθῶς αὐτὴν αὑτῇ κοινωνοῦσαν μετʼ ἄρχοντος, ἀεὶ δὲ ἄναρχον ἢ μετὰ κακῶν ἀρχόντων συνοῦσαν; οἰόμεθα δή ποτε τοὺς τοιούτους θεωροὺς τῶν τοιούτων κοινωνιῶν χρηστόν τι ψέξειν ἢ ἐπαινέσεσθαι; ΜΕ. πῶς δʼ ἄν, μηδέποτέ γε ἰδόντας μηδὲ συγγενομένους ὀρθῶς γενομένῳ μηδενὶ τῶν τοιούτων κοινωνημάτων; ΑΘ. ἔχε δή· τῶν πολλῶν κοινωνιῶν συμπότας καὶ συμπόσια θεῖμεν ἂν μίαν τινὰ συνουσίαν εἶναι;
Come, if someone should praise the rearing of goats, and the animal itself as being a fine possession, while another, having seen goats grazing without a goat-herd and doing damage in cultivated fields, should censure them, and seeing any herd without a ruler or with bad rulers should find fault in this way, do we believe that the censure of such a person would ever be a sound censure of anything at all?\nME. Megillus: How could it be?\nATH. Athenian: And is a leader of ships excellent for us, whether he only possesses the nautical science, regardless of whether he gets seasick or not, or how should we state it?\nME. Megillus: By no means, if in addition to his art he has also this affliction you mention.\nATH. Athenian: And what of a leader of armies? If he has military science, is he fit to lead, even if, being a coward in times of danger, he gets seasick from the drunkenness of fear?\nME. Megillus: How could he be?\nATH. Athenian: And what if, on the other hand, he neither possesses the art and is also a coward?\nME. Megillus: You are speaking of someone entirely worthless, and in no way a leader of men, but rather of some very womanish people.\n ATH. Athenian: What then of a praiser or censurer of any association whatsoever, for which it is natural to have a leader and in company with whom it is beneficial, if he has never seen it associating properly with itself under a leader, but always being without a leader or together with bad leaders? Do we think that such observers of such associations will ever censure or praise anything in a useful way?\nME. Megillus: How could they, when they have never seen nor associated with any of such associations when it is conducted rightly?\nATH. Athenian: Hold on then: among the many associations, should we set down drinking companions and drinking parties as being a certain single kind of gathering?\nME.
ΜΕ. καὶ σφόδρα γε.
Megillus: Most certainly.\nATH.
ΑΘ. ταύτην οὖν μῶν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἤδη τις πώποτε ἐθεάσατο;
Athenian: Has anyone then ever yet beheld this gathering conducted rightly?
καὶ σφῷν μὲν ἀποκρίνασθαι ῥᾴδιον ὡς οὐδεπώποτε τὸ παράπαν—οὐ γὰρ ἐπιχώριον ὑμῖν τοῦτο οὐδὲ νόμιμον—ἐγὼ δὲ ἐντετύχηκά τε πολλαῖς καὶ πολλαχοῦ, καὶ προσέτι πάσας ὡς ἔπος εἰπεῖν διηρώτηκα, καὶ σχεδὸν ὅλην μὲν οὐδεμίαν ὀρθῶς γιγνομένην ἑώρακα οὐδὲ ἀκήκοα, μόρια δʼ εἴ που σμικρὰ καὶ ὀλίγα, τὰ πολλὰ δὲ σύμπανθʼ ὡς εἰπεῖν διημαρτημένα.
Now, for the two of you, it is easy to reply that you have never done so at all—for this is neither a local custom for you nor lawful—but I have encountered many such parties in many places, and moreover, I have, so to speak, questioned all of them, and I have seen or heard of almost none that was conducted entirely rightly, but perhaps only small and few parts here and there, while the vast majority of them were, so to speak, completely mistaken.\n\nCL.
§1.640ΚΛ. πῶς δὴ ταῦτα, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις;
Cleinias: How indeed do you mean this, O stranger?
εἰπὲ ἔτι σαφέστερον· ἡμεῖς μὲν γάρ, ὅπερ εἶπες, ἀπειρίᾳ τῶν τοιούτων, οὐδὲ ἐντυγχάνοντες ἂν ἴσως εὐθύς γε γνοῖμεν τό τε ὀρθὸν καὶ μὴ γιγνόμενον ἐν αὐτοῖς.
Speak still more clearly; for we, as you said, owing to our inexperience in such matters, even if we encountered them, would perhaps not immediately recognize what is right and what is not right in them.\nATH.
ΑΘ. εἰκὸς λέγεις· ἀλλʼ ἐμοῦ φράζοντος πειρῶ μανθάνειν.
Athenian: What you say is natural; but as I explain it, try to understand.
τὸ μὲν γὰρ ἐν πάσαις τε συνόδοις, καὶ κοινωνίαις πράξεων ὡντινωνοῦν, ὡς ὀρθὸν πανταχοῦ ἑκάστοις ἄρχοντα εἶναι, μανθάνεις;
For do you understand that in all gatherings and associations of any actions whatsoever, it is right for there to be a leader everywhere for each?\nCL.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Cleinias: How could I not?\nATH.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν ἐλέγομεν νυνδὴ μαχομένων ὡς ἀνδρεῖον δεῖ τὸν ἄρχοντʼ εἶναι.
Athenian: And indeed we were saying just now of those who fight that the leader must be courageous.\nCL.
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
Cleinias: Of course.\nATH.
ΑΘ. ὁ μὴν ἀνδρεῖος τῶν δειλῶν ὑπὸ φόβων ἧττον τεθορύβηται.
Athenian: And the courageous man is indeed less disturbed by fears than the cowards.\n CL.
ΚΛ. καὶ τοῦτο οὕτως.
Cleinias: This also is so.\nATH.
ΑΘ. εἰ δʼ ἦν τις μηχανὴ μηδὲν τὸ παράπαν δεδιότα μηδὲ θορυβούμενον ἐπιστῆσαι στρατοπέδῳ στρατηγόν, ἆρʼ οὐ τοῦτʼ ἂν παντὶ τρόπῳ ἐπράττομεν;
Athenian: And if there were some device to set as a general over an army one who feared nothing at all and was not disturbed, would we not have done this by every means?\nCL.
ΚΛ. σφόδρα μὲν οὖν.
Cleinias: Very much so.\nATH.
ΑΘ. νῦν δέ γε οὐ στρατοπέδου περὶ λέγομεν ἄρξοντος ἐν ἀνδρῶν ὁμιλίαις ἐχθρῶν ἐχθροῖς μετὰ πολέμου, φίλων δʼ ἐν εἰρήνῃ πρὸς φίλους κοινωνησόντων φιλοφροσύνης.
Athenian: But now we are not speaking of one who is to lead an army in associations of hostile men against enemies in war, but of friends who in peace are to associate with friends in friendliness.\nCL.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς.
Cleinias: Correct.\n ATH.
ΑΘ. ἔστιν δέ γε ἡ τοιαύτη συνουσία, εἴπερ ἔσται μετὰ μέθης, οὐκ ἀθόρυβος.
Athenian: And yet such a gathering, if indeed it is to be with drunkenness, is not without disturbance.
ἦ γάρ;
Is it not so?\nCL.
ΚΛ. πῶς γάρ;
Cleinias: How could it be?
ἀλλʼ οἶμαι πᾶν τοὐναντίον.
Rather, I think, quite the contrary.\nATH.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν πρῶτον μὲν καὶ τούτοις ἄρχοντος δεῖ;
Athenian: Therefore, first of all, do these people also need a leader?\nCL.
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Cleinias: Certainly!
ὡς οὐδενί γε πράγματι.
As much as any other matter.\nATH.
ΑΘ. πότερον οὖν ἀθόρυβον, εἰ δυνατὸν εἴη, τὸν τοιοῦτον ἄρχοντα ἐκπορίζεσθαι δεῖ;
Athenian: Should we then provide such a leader who is undisturbed, if it were possible?\nCL.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Cleinias: Of course.\nATH.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν περί γε συνουσίας, ὡς ἔοικεν, αὐτὸν φρόνιμον εἶναι δεῖ· γίγνεται γὰρ φύλαξ τῆς τε ὑπαρχούσης φιλίας αὐτοῖς, καὶ ἔτι πλείονος ἐπιμελητὴς ὅπως ἔσται διὰ τὴν τότε συνουσίαν.
Athenian: And indeed, concerning the gathering at least, it seems he must be wise; for he becomes the guardian of the existing friendship among them, and moreover the caretaker of how still more of it shall arise through that gathering.\nCL.
ΚΛ. ἀληθέστατα.
Cleinias: Most true.\nATH.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν νήφοντά τε καὶ σοφὸν ἄρχοντα μεθυόντων δεῖ καθιστάναι, καὶ μὴ τοὐναντίον;
Athenian: Therefore, is it necessary to appoint a sober and wise leader over those who are drunk, and not the contrary?
μεθυόντων γὰρ μεθύων καὶ νέος ἄρχων μὴ σοφός, εἰ μὴ κακὸν ἀπεργάσαιτό τι μέγα, πολλῇ χρῷτʼ ἂν ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ.
For if a drunken, young, and unwise leader over drunken people should not cause some great evil, he would have to enjoy very great good fortune.\nCL.
ΚΛ. παμπόλλῃ μὲν οὖν.
Cleinias: Very great indeed.\nATH.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν εἰ μὲν γιγνομένων ὡς δυνατὸν ὀρθότατα τούτων ἐν ταῖς πόλεσι τῶν συνουσιῶν μέμφοιτό τις, ἐπικαλῶν αὐτῷ τῷ πράγματι, τάχʼ ἂν ὀρθῶς ἴσως μέμφοιτο· εἰ δὲ ἁμαρτανόμενον ὡς οἷόν τε μάλιστα ἐπιτήδευμά τις ὁρῶν λοιδορεῖ, πρῶτον μὲν δῆλον ὡς ἀγνοεῖ τοῦτʼ αὐτὸ γιγνόμενον οὐκ ὀρθῶς, εἶθʼ ὅτι πᾶν τούτῳ τῷ τρόπῳ φανεῖται πονηρόν, δεσπότου τε καὶ ἄρχοντος νήφοντος χωρὶς πραττόμενον.
Athenian: Therefore, if anyone should censure these gatherings when they are conducted as correctly as possible in the cities, bringing a charge against the practice itself, he would perhaps be right in his censure; but if someone, seeing a practice carried out as mistakenly as possible, insults it, first of all it is clear that he is ignorant that this very thing is not being conducted correctly, and secondly, that everything will appear worthless in this way if it is done without a sober master and leader.