§1.637ΜΕ. λέγεται μὲν ταῦτα, ὦ ξένε, καλῶς πως· οὐ μὴν ἀλλʼ ἀφασία γʼ ἡμᾶς λαμβάνει τί ποτε χρὴ λέγειν πρὸς ταῦτα, ὅμως δʼ ἔμοιγε ὀρθῶς δοκεῖ τὸ τὰς ἡδονὰς φεύγειν διακελεύεσθαι τόν γε ἐν Λακεδαίμονι νομοθέτην, περὶ δὲ τῶν ἐν Κνωσῷ νόμων ὅδε, ἂν ἐθέλῃ, βοηθήσει.
ME. Megillus: These things are spoken well in a way, O stranger; nevertheless, a speechlessness takes hold of us as to what on earth one ought to say to these things. Still, to me at least, it seems that the lawgiver in Lacedaemon rightly commands to flee pleasures; as for the laws in Cnossus, this man here, if he wishes, will come to their aid.
τὰ δʼ ἐν Σπάρτῃ κάλλιστʼ ἀνθρώπων δοκεῖ μοι κεῖσθαι τὰ περὶ τὰς ἡδονάς·
And the matters concerning pleasures in Sparta seem to me to be established most beautifully among men.
οὗ γὰρ μάλιστʼ ἄνθρωποι καὶ μεγίσταις προσπίπτουσιν ἡδοναῖς καὶ ὕβρεσι καὶ ἀνοίᾳ πάσῃ, τοῦτʼ ἐξέβαλεν ὁ νόμος ἡμῶν ἐκ τῆς χώρας συμπάσης, καὶ οὔτʼ ἂν ἐπʼ ἀγρῶν ἴδοις, οὔτʼ ἐν ἄστεσιν ὅσων Σπαρτιάταις μέλει, συμπόσια οὐδʼ ὁπόσα τούτοις συνεπόμενα πάσας ἡδονὰς κινεῖ κατὰ δύναμιν, οὐδʼ ἔστιν ὅστις ἂν ἀπαντῶν κωμάζοντί τινι μετὰ μέθης οὐκ ἂν τὴν μεγίστην δίκην εὐθὺς ἐπιθείη, καὶ οὐδʼ ἂν Διονύσια πρόφασιν ἔχοντʼ αὐτὸν λύσαιτο, ὥσπερ ἐν ἁμάξαις εἶδόν ποτε παρʼ ὑμῖν ἐγώ, καὶ ἐν Τάραντι δὲ παρὰ τοῖς ἡμετέροις ἀποίκοις πᾶσαν ἐθεασάμην τὴν πόλιν περὶ τὰ Διονύσια μεθύουσαν·
For that to which men especially fall, and to the greatest pleasures and outrages and all foolishness, this our law has expelled from our whole land; and you would see neither in the fields nor in the cities which are under the care of Spartans any symposia, nor any of those things that follow them and stir up all pleasures with all their might. Nor is there anyone who, meeting someone revelling in drunkenness, would not immediately impose the greatest penalty upon him, nor would he let him off even if he had the Dionysia as a pretext—just as I once saw among you on wagons, and in Tarentum among our colonists I beheld the whole city drunk during the Dionysia.
παρʼ ἡμῖν δʼ οὐκ ἔστʼ οὐδὲν τοιοῦτον.
But among us there is nothing of the sort.
ΑΘ. ὦ Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε, ἐπαινετὰ μὲν πάντʼ ἐστὶν τὰ τοιαῦτα, ὅπου τινὲς ἔνεισιν καρτερήσεις, ὅπου δὲ ἀνεῖνται, βλακικώτερα· ταχὺ γάρ σου λάβοιτʼ ἄν τις τῶν παρʼ ἡμῶν ἀμυνόμενος, δεικνὺς τὴν τῶν γυναικῶν παρʼ ὑμῖν ἄνεσιν.
ATH. Athenian: O Lacedaemonian stranger, all such things are praiseworthy where some endurances are present, but where they are relaxed, they become rather sluggish; for someone of our people, in self-defense, would quickly lay hold of you by pointing out the laxity of the women among you.
ἅπασιν δὴ τοῖς τοιούτοις, καὶ ἐν Τάραντι καὶ παρʼ ἡμῖν καὶ παρʼ ὑμῖν δέ, μία ἀπόκρισις ἀπολύεσθαι δοκεῖ τοῦ μὴ κακῶς ἔχειν ἀλλʼ ὀρθῶς·
Indeed, for all such things, both in Tarentum and among us and among you too, there seems to be a single answer that releases them from being bad and makes them right.
πᾶς γὰρ ἀποκρινόμενος ἐρεῖ θαυμάζοντι ξένῳ, τὴν παρʼ αὐτοῖς ἀήθειαν ὁρῶντι,
μὴ θαύμαζε, ὦ ξένε· νόμος ἔσθʼ ἡμῖν οὗτος, ἴσως δʼ ὑμῖν περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων ἕτερος. ἡμῖν δʼ ἐστὶ νῦν, ὦ φίλοι ἄνδρες, οὐ περὶ τῶν ἀνθρώπων τῶν ἄλλων ὁ λόγος, ἀλλὰ περὶ τῶν νομοθετῶν αὐτῶν κακίας τε καὶ ἀρετῆς.
For everyone in reply will say to a wondering stranger who sees the unfamiliarity among them: "Do not wonder, O stranger; this is our law, and perhaps you have about these very things a different one." But our discussion now, O dear friends, is not about the rest of mankind, but about the vice and virtue of the lawgivers themselves.
ἔτι γὰρ οὖν εἴπωμεν πλείω περὶ ἁπάσης μέθης· οὐ γὰρ σμικρόν ἐστιν τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα οὐδὲ φαύλου διαγνῶναι νομοθέτου.
For let us still speak further about drunkenness as a whole; for it is no small practice, nor one for a trivial lawgiver to judge.
λέγω δʼ οὐκ οἴνου περὶ πόσεως τὸ παράπαν ἢ μή, μέθης δὲ αὐτῆς πέρι, πότερον ὥσπερ Σκύθαι χρῶνται καὶ Πέρσαι χρηστέον, καὶ ἔτι Καρχηδόνιοι καὶ Κελτοὶ καὶ Ἴβηρες καὶ Θρᾷκες, πολεμικὰ σύμπαντα ὄντα ταῦτα γένη, ἢ καθάπερ ὑμεῖς·
And I speak not of the drinking of wine at all or not, but about drunkenness itself, whether one should use it as the Scythians and Persians do, and also the Carthaginians, Celts, Iberians, and Thracians—all these being warlike races—or as you do.
ὑμεῖς μὲν γάρ, ὅπερ λέγεις, τὸ παράπαν ἀπέχεσθε, Σκύθαι δὲ καὶ Θρᾷκες ἀκράτῳ παντάπασι χρώμενοι, γυναῖκές τε καὶ αὐτοί, καὶ κατὰ τῶν ἱματίων καταχεόμενοι, καλὸν καὶ εὔδαιμον ἐπιτήδευμα ἐπιτηδεύειν νενομίκασι.
For you, as you say, abstain entirely, whereas the Scythians and Thracians, using unmixed wine altogether, both women and themselves, and pouring it down over their clothes, believe they are practicing a beautiful and happy practice.
Πέρσαι δὲ σφόδρα μὲν χρῶνται καὶ ταῖς ἄλλαις τρυφαῖς ἃς ὑμεῖς ἀποβάλλετε, ἐν τάξει δὲ μᾶλλον τούτων.
The Persians, on the other hand, make great use of it and of the other luxuries which you reject, but in a more orderly fashion than these.
§1.638ΜΕ. ὦ λῷστε, διώκομεν δέ γε ἡμεῖς πάντας τούτους, ὅταν ὅπλα εἰς τὰς χεῖρας λάβωμεν.
ME. Megillus: My good sir, but we at any rate pursue all these when we take weapons into our hands.
ΑΘ. ὦ ἄριστε, μὴ λέγε ταῦτα· πολλαὶ γὰρ δὴ φυγαὶ καὶ διώξεις ἀτέκμαρτοι γεγόνασίν τε καὶ ἔσονται, διὸ φανερὸν ὅρον τοῦτον οὐκ ἄν ποτε λέγοιμεν, ἀλλὰ ἀμφισβητήσιμον, περὶ καλῶν ἐπιτηδευμάτων καὶ μή, νίκην τε καὶ ἧτταν λέγοντες μάχης.
ATH. Athenian: O best of men, do not say these things; for indeed many flights and pursuits, without clear proof, have occurred and will occur, wherefore we should never state this as a clear limit, but rather an disputable one, concerning beautiful practices and those that are not, by speaking of victory and defeat in battle.
ἐπειδὴ γὰρ αἱ μείζους τὰς ἐλάττους πόλεις νικῶσιν μαχόμεναι καὶ καταδουλοῦνται, Συρακόσιοι μὲν Λοκρούς, οἳ δὴ δοκοῦσιν εὐνομώτατοι τῶν περὶ ἐκεῖνον τὸν τόπον γεγονέναι, Κείους δὲ Ἀθηναῖοι· μυρία δὲ ἄλλα τοιαῦτʼ ἂν εὕροιμεν.
For since the larger cities, in fighting, defeat and enslave the smaller ones—as the Syracusans did to the Locrians, who indeed seem to have been the most well-governed of the people around that place, and the Athenians to the Ceans; and we could find ten thousand other such cases.
ἀλλὰ περὶ αὐτοῦ ἑκάστου ἐπιτηδεύματος πειρώμεθα λέγοντες πείθειν ἡμᾶς αὐτούς, νίκας δὲ καὶ ἥττας ἐκτὸς λόγου τὰ νῦν θῶμεν, λέγωμεν δʼ ὡς τὸ μὲν τοιόνδʼ ἐστὶν καλόν, τὸ δὲ τοιόνδε οὐ καλόν.
But let us try by speaking to persuade ourselves about each practice itself, and let us put victories and defeats out of the discussion for now, and let us say that such and such a thing is beautiful, and such and such is not beautiful.
πρῶτον δʼ ἀκούσατέ τί μου, περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων ὡς δεῖ τό τε χρηστὸν καὶ τὸ μὴ σκοπεῖν.
But first, hear from me a certain thing about these very matters, how one ought to examine what is useful and what is not.
ΜΕ. πῶς οὖν δὴ λέγεις;
ME. Megillus: How indeed do you mean?
ΑΘ. δοκοῦσί μοι πάντες οἱ λόγῳ τι λαβόντες ἐπιτήδευμα, καὶ προθέμενοι ψέγειν αὐτὸ ἢ ἐπαινεῖν εὐθὺς ῥηθέν, οὐδαμῶς δρᾶν κατὰ τρόπον, ἀλλὰ ταὐτὸν ποιεῖν οἷον εἰ δή τις, ἐπαινέσαντός τινος πυροὺς βρῶμα ὡς ἀγαθόν, εὐθὺς ψέγοι, μὴ διαπυθόμενος αὐτοῦ μήτε τὴν ἐργασίαν μήτε τὴν προσφοράν, ὅντινα τρόπον καὶ οἷστισι καὶ μεθʼ ὧν καὶ ὅπως ἔχοντα καὶ ὅπως προσφέρειν ἔχουσιν.
ATH. Athenian: It seems to me that all those who take up a certain practice in discussion, and set out to censure or praise it as soon as it is mentioned, act in no way properly, but do just as if someone, when another praised wheat as a good food, should immediately censure it, without inquiring from him either its preparation or its administration, in what manner, to whom, with what, in what condition, and how they should administer it.
νῦν δὴ ταὐτόν μοι δοκοῦμεν ἡμεῖς ἐν τοῖς λόγοις ποιεῖν·
Just so now, we seem to me to be doing the very same thing in our discussions.
περὶ μέθης γὰρ ἀκούσαντες τοσοῦτον μόνον, εὐθὺς οἱ μὲν ψέγειν αὐτό, οἱ δʼ ἐπαινεῖν, καὶ μάλα ἀτόπως.
For having heard only this much about drunkenness, immediately some censure it, and others praise it, and in a very strange way.
μάρτυσιν γὰρ καὶ ἐπαινέταις χρώμενοι ἐπαινοῦμεν ἑκάτεροι, καὶ οἱ μέν, ὅτι πολλοὺς παρεχόμεθα, ἀξιοῦμέν τι λέγειν κύριον, οἱ δέ, ὅτι τοὺς μὴ χρωμένους αὐτῷ ὁρῶμεν νικῶντας μαχομένους· ἀμφισβητεῖται δʼ αὖ καὶ τοῦτο ἡμῖν.
For using witnesses and praisers we each praise it, and one party, because we present many of them, claims to speak with authority, while the other party does so because we see those who do not use it conquering in battle; but this in turn is disputed by us.
εἰ μὲν δὴ καὶ περὶ ἑκάστων οὕτω καὶ τῶν ἄλλων νομίμων διέξιμεν, οὐκ ἂν ἔμοιγε κατὰ νοῦν εἴη, τρόπον δὲ ἄλλον, ὃν ἐμοὶ φαίνεται δεῖν, ἐθέλω λέγειν περὶ αὐτοῦ τούτου, τῆς μέθης, πειρώμενος ἂν ἄρα δύνωμαι τὴν περὶ ἁπάντων τῶν τοιούτων ὀρθὴν μέθοδον ἡμῖν δηλοῦν, ἐπειδὴ καὶ μυρία ἐπὶ μυρίοις ἔθνη περὶ αὐτῶν ἀμφισβητοῦντα ὑμῖν πόλεσι δυοῖν τῷ λόγῳ διαμάχοιτʼ ἄν.
If indeed we are to go through each of the other laws in this way, it would not be to my mind. Rather, I wish to speak about this very thing, drunkenness, in another way, which seems to me to be necessary, trying, if indeed I am able, to show us the correct method concerning all such things, since indeed countless nations disputing about them would fight against you two cities in argument.