§1.635ΚΛ. ὀρθότατά γε, ὦ ξένε, λέγεις, καὶ καθάπερ μάντις, ἀπὼν τῆς τότε διανοίας τοῦ τιθέντος αὐτά, νῦν ἐπιεικῶς μοι δοκεῖς ἐστοχάσθαι καὶ σφόδρα ἀληθῆ λέγειν.
Cleinias: You speak most rightly, O stranger, and like a diviner, although absent from the intention of the one who established them at that time, you seem to me now to have aimed well and to speak what is very true.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν ἡμῖν τὰ νῦν ἐρημία μὲν νέων, αὐτοὶ δʼ ἕνεκα γήρως ἀφείμεθʼ ὑπὸ τοῦ νομοθέτου διαλεγόμενοι περὶ αὐτῶν τούτων μόνοι πρὸς μόνους μηδὲν ἂν πλημμελεῖν;
Athenian: Therefore, since we are now in the absence of young people, and we ourselves because of old age are permitted by the lawgiver to discuss these very matters alone among ourselves, would we not be doing nothing wrong?
ΚΛ. ἔστι ταῦτα οὕτως, εἰς ἃ καὶ μηδέν γε ἀνῇς ἐπιτιμῶν τοῖς νόμοις ἡμῶν·
Cleinias: That is so; wherefore do not slacken at all in finding fault with our laws.
οὐ γὰρ τό γε γνῶναί τι τῶν μὴ καλῶν ἄτιμον, ἀλλὰ ἴασιν ἐξ αὐτοῦ συμβαίνει γίγνεσθαι τῷ μὴ φθόνῳ τὰ λεγόμενα ἀλλʼ εὐνοίᾳ δεχομένῳ.
For to recognize something that is not well made is not dishonorable, but rather, a cure happens to come from it for the one who receives what is said not with envy but with goodwill.
ΑΘ. καλῶς·
¦635b Athenian: Well spoken.
οὐ μὴν ἐπιτιμῶν γε ἐρῶ τοῖς νόμοις πω, πρὶν βεβαίως εἰς δύναμιν διασκέψασθαι, μᾶλλον δὲ ἀπορῶν.
However, I shall not speak as one finding fault with the laws yet, before examining them as firmly as possible, but rather as one raising doubts.
ὑμῖν γὰρ ὁ νομοθέτης μόνοις Ἑλλήνων καὶ βαρβάρων, ὧν ἡμεῖς πυνθανόμεθα, τῶν μεγίστων ἡδονῶν καὶ παιδιῶν ἐπέταξεν ἀπέχεσθαι καὶ μὴ γεύεσθαι, τὸ δὲ τῶν λυπῶν καὶ φόβων, ὅπερ ἄρτι διεληλύθαμεν, ἡγήσατο εἴ τις ἐκ παίδων φευξεῖται διὰ τέλους, ὁπόταν εἰς ἀναγκαίους ἔλθῃ πόνους καὶ φόβους καὶ λύπας, φευξεῖσθαι τοὺς ἐν ἐκείνοις γεγυμνασμένους καὶ δουλεύσειν αὐτοῖς.
For to you alone of Greeks and barbarians whom we learn of, the lawgiver commanded to abstain from and not taste of the greatest pleasures and amusements, but as for the matter of pains and fears, which we have just gone through, he thought that if anyone flees them from childhood to the end, whenever he comes to necessary labors and fears and pains, he will flee from those who have been trained in them and become a slave to them.
ταὐτὸν δὴ τοῦτʼ, οἶμαι, καὶ πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς ἔδει διανοεῖσθαι τὸν αὐτὸν νομοθέτην, λέγοντα αὐτὸν πρὸς ἑαυτὸν ὡς ἡμῖν ἐκ νέων εἰ ἄπειροι τῶν μεγίστων ἡδονῶν οἱ πολῖται γενήσονται, καὶ ἀμελέτητοι γιγνόμενοι ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καρτερεῖν καὶ μηδὲν τῶν αἰσχρῶν ἀναγκάζεσθαι ποιεῖν, ἕνεκα τῆς γλυκυθυμίας τῆς πρὸς τὰς ἡδονὰς ταὐτὸν πείσονται τοῖς ἡττωμένοις τῶν φόβων·
I think, then, that the same lawgiver ought to have kept this very same thing in mind also with respect to pleasures, saying to himself that if our citizens from youth on are to be inexperienced in the greatest pleasures, and become unpracticed in enduring in the midst of pleasures and in not being forced to do any shameful thing, they will, because of their sweet desire for pleasures, suffer the same fate as those defeated by fears.
δουλεύσουσι τρόπον ἕτερον καὶ ἔτʼ αἰσχίω τοῖς γε δυναμένοις καρτερεῖν ἐν ταῖς ἡδοναῖς καὶ τοῖς κεκτημένοις τὰ περὶ τὰς ἡδονάς, ἀνθρώποις ἐνίοτε παντάπασι κακοῖς, καὶ τὴν ψυχὴν τῇ μὲν δούλην τῇ δὲ ἐλευθέραν ἕξουσιν, καὶ οὐκ ἄξιοι ἁπλῶς ἀνδρεῖοι καὶ ἐλευθέριοι ἔσονται προσαγορεύεσθαι.
They will be enslaved in another and even more shameful way to those who are able to endure in pleasures and those who possess the means of pleasures—men who are sometimes entirely bad—and they will have a soul that is partly enslaved and partly free, and they will not be worthy to be called simply brave and free.
σκοπεῖτε οὖν εἴ τι τῶν νῦν λεγομένων ὑμῖν κατὰ τρόπον δοκεῖ λέγεσθαι.
Consider then whether any of the things now being said seems to you to be spoken in a proper manner.
ΚΛ. δοκεῖ μὲν ἡμῖν γέ πως λεγομένου τοῦ λόγου· περὶ δὲ τηλικούτων εὐθὺς πεπιστευκέναι ῥᾳδίως μὴ νέων τε ᾖ μᾶλλον καὶ ἀνοήτων.
Cleinias: It seems to us somehow so, as the argument is spoken; but to trust easily and immediately about such great matters, let it not belong rather to the young and the foolish.
§1.636ΑΘ. ἀλλʼ εἰ τὸ μετὰ ταῦτα διεξίοιμεν ὧν προυθέμεθα, ὦ Κλεινία τε καὶ Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε—μετʼ ἀνδρείαν γὰρ δὴ σωφροσύνης πέρι λέγωμεν—τὶ διαφέρον ἐν ταύταις ταῖς πολιτείαις ἢ ταῖς τῶν εἰκῇ πολιτευομένων ἀνευρήσομεν, ὥσπερ τὰ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον νυνδή;
Athenian: But if we should go through what comes next among the things we proposed, O Cleinias and Lacedaemonian stranger—for after courage let us indeed speak about temperance—what difference shall we find in these constitutions compared to those of people who govern at random, just like the matters concerning war just now?
ΜΕ. σχεδὸν οὐ ῥᾴδιον· ἀλλʼ ἔοικεν γὰρ τά τε συσσίτια καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια καλῶς ηὑρῆσθαι πρὸς ἀμφοτέρας.
Megillus: It is nearly not easy; but indeed, both the common meals and the gymnasia seem to have been well devised for both.
ΑΘ. ἔοικεν δῆτα, ὦ ξένοι, χαλεπὸν εἶναι τὸ περὶ τὰς πολιτείας ἀναμφισβητήτως ὁμοίως ἔργῳ καὶ λόγῳ γίγνεσθαι·
Athenian: It seems indeed, O strangers, to be difficult that matters concerning constitutions should turn out indisputably the same in deed and in word.
κινδυνεύει γάρ, καθάπερ ἐν τοῖς σώμασιν, οὐ δυνατὸν εἶναι προστάξαι τι πρὸς ἓν σῶμα ἓν ἐπιτήδευμα, ἐν ᾧ οὐκ ἂν φανείη ταὐτὸν τοῦτο τὰ μὲν βλάπτον τὰ ἡμῶν σώματα, τὰ δὲ καὶ ὠφελοῦν.
For it is likely, just as in the case of bodies, that it is not possible to prescribe any single practice for a body, in which this very same thing would not appear harming our bodies in some respects, but also benefiting them in others.
ἐπεὶ καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια ταῦτα καὶ τὰ συσσίτια πολλὰ μὲν ἄλλα νῦν ὠφελεῖ τὰς πόλεις, πρὸς δὲ τὰς στάσεις χαλεπά—δηλοῦσιν δὲ Μιλησίων καὶ Βοιωτῶν καὶ Θουρίων παῖδες—καὶ δὴ καὶ παλαιὸν νόμον δοκεῖ τοῦτο τὸ ἐπιτήδευμα καὶ κατὰ φύσιν, τὰς περὶ τὰ ἀφροδίσια ἡδονὰς οὐ μόνον ἀνθρώπων ἀλλὰ καὶ θηρίων, διεφθαρκέναι.
Since indeed these gymnasia and common meals now benefit the cities in many other ways, but are troublesome with respect to factions—as the youths of the Milesians, Boeotians, and Thuriens show—and what is more, this practice seems to have corrupted an ancient and natural law concerning the pleasures of sex, not only of humans but also of beasts.
καὶ τούτων τὰς ὑμετέρας πόλεις πρώτας ἄν τις αἰτιῷτο καὶ ὅσαι τῶν ἄλλων μάλιστα ἅπτονται τῶν γυμνασίων·
And for these things one might accuse your cities first, and as many of the others as especially touch upon the gymnasia.
καὶ εἴτε παίζοντα εἴτε σπουδάζοντα ἐννοεῖν δεῖ τὰ τοιαῦτα, ἐννοητέον ὅτι τῇ θηλείᾳ καὶ τῇ τῶν ἀρρένων φύσει εἰς κοινωνίαν ἰούσῃ τῆς γεννήσεως ἡ περὶ ταῦτα ἡδονὴ κατὰ φύσιν ἀποδεδόσθαι δοκεῖ, ἀρρένων δὲ πρὸς ἄρρενας ἢ θηλειῶν πρὸς θηλείας παρὰ φύσιν καὶ τῶν πρώτων τὸ τόλμημʼ εἶναι διʼ ἀκράτειαν ἡδονῆς.
And whether one must consider such things in play or in earnest, it must be considered that while the pleasure concerning these things seems to have been given according to nature to the female and the male nature when they come into union for procreation, that of males with males or females with females is contrary to nature, and that the first daring of it arose from lack of self-control regarding pleasure.
πάντες δὲ δὴ Κρητῶν τὸν περὶ Γανυμήδη μῦθον κατηγοροῦμεν ὡς λογοποιησάντων τούτων· ἐπειδὴ παρὰ Διὸς αὐτοῖς οἱ νόμοι πεπιστευμένοι ἦσαν γεγονέναι, τοῦτον τὸν μῦθον προστεθηκέναι κατὰ τοῦ Διός, ἵνα ἑπόμενοι δὴ τῷ θεῷ καρπῶνται καὶ ταύτην τὴν ἡδονήν.
And indeed we all accuse the Cretans of having fabricated the myth concerning Ganymede; since their laws were believed to have come from Zeus, they added this myth against Zeus, in order that, by following the god, they might also enjoy this pleasure.
τὸ μὲν οὖν τοῦ μύθου χαιρέτω, νόμων δὲ πέρι διασκοπουμένων ἀνθρώπων ὀλίγου πᾶσά ἐστιν ἡ σκέψις περί τε τὰς ἡδονὰς καὶ τὰς λύπας ἔν τε πόλεσιν καὶ ἐν ἰδίοις ἤθεσιν·
Let the matter of the myth, then, be dismissed; but for men examining laws, almost the whole of their inquiry is about both pleasures and pains, both in cities and in private characters.
δύο γὰρ αὗται πηγαὶ μεθεῖνται φύσει ῥεῖν, ὧν ὁ μὲν ἀρυτόμενος ὅθεν τε δεῖ καὶ ὁπότε καὶ ὁπόσον εὐδαιμονεῖ, καὶ πόλις ὁμοίως καὶ ἰδιώτης καὶ ζῷον ἅπαν, ὁ δʼ ἀνεπιστημόνως ἅμα καὶ ἐκτὸς τῶν καιρῶν τἀναντία ἂν ἐκείνῳ ζῴη.
For these two springs are let loose by nature to flow, from which he who draws from where he ought, and when, and as much as he ought, is happy—and a city likewise, and a private individual, and every living creature—but he who does so without knowledge and out of season would live a life opposite to that one.