§1.633ΜΕ. καλῶς λέγεις, καὶ πειρῶ πρῶτον κρίνειν τὸν τοῦ Διὸς ἐπαινέτην τόνδε ἡμῖν.
Megillus: You speak well, and try first to judge this praiser of Zeus for us.
ΑΘ. πειράσομαι, καὶ σέ τε καὶ ἐμαυτόν· κοινὸς γὰρ ὁ λόγος.
Athenian: I shall try, and both you and myself; for the argument is common.
λέγετε οὖν· τὰ συσσίτιά φαμεν καὶ τὰ γυμνάσια πρὸς τὸν πόλεμον ἐξηυρῆσθαι τῷ νομοθέτῃ;
Speak then: do we say that the common meals and the gymnasia were devised by the lawgiver with a view to war?
ΜΕ. ναί.
Megillus: Yes.
ΑΘ. καὶ τρίτον ἢ τέταρτον;
Athenian: And a third or a fourth?
ἴσως γὰρ ἂν οὕτω χρείη διαριθμήσασθαι καὶ περὶ τῶν τῆς ἄλλης ἀρετῆς εἴτε μερῶν εἴτε ἅττʼ αὐτὰ καλεῖν χρεών ἐστι, δηλοῦντα μόνον ἃ λέγει.
For perhaps in this way it would be necessary to enumerate also the parts—or whatever it is proper to call them, showing only what one means—of the rest of virtue.
ΜΕ. τρίτον τοίνυν, ἔγωγʼ εἴποιμʼ ἂν καὶ Λακεδαιμονίων ὁστισοῦν, τὴν θήραν ηὗρε.
Megillus: Then as a third, I—and indeed any Lacedaemonian whatsoever—would say that he devised hunting.
ΑΘ. τέταρτον δέ, ἢ πέμπτον εἰ δυναίμεθα, λέγειν πειρώμεθα.
Athenian: And let us try to state the fourth, or the fifth if we can.
ΜΕ. ἔτι τοίνυν καὶ τὸ τέταρτον ἔγωγε πειρῴμην ἂν λέγειν, τὸ περὶ τὰς καρτερήσεις τῶν ἀλγηδόνων πολὺ παρʼ ἡμῖν γιγνόμενον, ἔν τε ταῖς πρὸς ἀλλήλους ταῖς χερσὶ μάχαις καὶ ἐν ἁρπαγαῖς τισιν διὰ πολλῶν πληγῶν ἑκάστοτε γιγνομένων·
Megillus: Furthermore, I would try to state the fourth: that which concerns endurance of pains, which occurs a great deal among us, both in hand-to-hand fights with one another and in certain robberies which take place each time with many blows.
ἔτι δὲ καὶ κρυπτεία τις ὀνομάζεται θαυμαστῶς πολύπονος πρὸς τὰς καρτερήσεις, χειμώνων τε ἀνυποδησίαι καὶ ἀστρωσίαι καὶ ἄνευ θεραπόντων αὐτοῖς ἑαυτῶν διακονήσεις νύκτωρ τε πλανωμένων διὰ πάσης τῆς χώρας καὶ μεθʼ ἡμέραν.
Moreover, there is also what is called 'krypteia' (secret service), which is wonderfully laborious for endurance, with going barefoot in winter, sleeping without bedding, serving themselves without attendants, and wandering both by night and by day through the whole territory.
ἔτι δὲ κἀν ταῖς γυμνοπαιδίαις δειναὶ καρτερήσεις παρʼ ἡμῖν γίγνονται τῇ τοῦ πνίγους ῥώμῃ διαμαχομένων, καὶ πάμπολλα ἕτερα, σχεδὸν ὅσα οὐκ ἂν παύσαιτό τις ἑκάστοτε διεξιών.
Furthermore, also in the 'gymnopaidiai' (festivals of naked youths), terrible endurances occur among us as they struggle against the power of the stifling heat, and very many other things, nearly so many that one would never cease going through them in detail.
ΑΘ. εὖ γε, ὦ Λακεδαιμόνιε ξένε, λέγεις.
Athenian: Well said, O Lacedaemonian stranger.
τὴν ἀνδρείαν δέ, φέρε, τί θῶμεν;
But come, what shall we establish courage to be?
πότερον ἁπλῶς οὕτως εἶναι πρὸς φόβους καὶ λύπας διαμάχην μόνον, ἢ καὶ πρὸς πόθους τε καὶ ἡδονὰς καί τινας δεινὰς θωπείας κολακικάς, αἳ καὶ τῶν σεμνῶν οἰομένων εἶναι τοὺς θυμοὺς ποιοῦσιν κηρίνους.
Is it simply, in this way, a struggle only against fears and pains, or also against desires and pleasures and certain terrible flatteries of a fawning kind, which make even the spirits of those who think themselves majestic as soft as wax?
ΜΕ. οἶμαι μὲν οὕτω· πρὸς ταῦτα σύμπαντα.
Megillus: I think indeed so: against all of these.
ΑΘ. εἰ γοῦν μεμνήμεθα τοὺς ἔμπροσθεν λόγους, ἥττω τινὰ ὅδε καὶ πόλιν ἔλεγεν αὐτὴν αὑτῆς καὶ ἄνδρα.
Athenian: At any rate, if we remember the previous arguments, this man here was saying that both a city itself and a man are weaker than themselves.
ἦ γάρ, ὦ ξένε Κνώσιε;
Is it not so, O Cnossian stranger?
ΚΛ. καὶ πάνυ γε.
Cleinias: Quite so, indeed.
ΑΘ. νῦν οὖν πότερα λέγομεν τὸν τῶν λυπῶν ἥττω κακὸν ἢ καὶ τὸν τῶν ἡδονῶν;
Athenian: Now, then, do we say that the one who is weaker than pains is bad, or also the one who is weaker than pleasures?
ΚΛ. μᾶλλον, ἔμοιγε δοκεῖ, τὸν τῶν ἡδονῶν·
Cleinias: Rather, it seems to me, the one who is weaker than pleasures.
καὶ πάντες που μᾶλλον λέγομεν τὸν ὑπὸ τῶν ἡδονῶν κρατούμενον τοῦτον τὸν ἐπονειδίστως ἥττονα ἑαυτοῦ πρότερον ἢ τὸν ὑπὸ τῶν λυπῶν.
And we all, surely, rather say that the one ruled by pleasures is shamefully weaker than himself, sooner than the one ruled by pains.
§1.634ΑΘ. ὁ Διὸς οὖν δὴ καὶ ὁ Πυθικὸς νομοθέτης οὐ δήπου χωλὴν τὴν ἀνδρείαν νενομοθετήκατον, πρὸς τἀριστερὰ μόνον δυναμένην ἀντιβαίνειν, πρὸς τὰ δεξιὰ καὶ κομψὰ καὶ θωπευτικὰ ἀδυνατοῦσαν;
Athenian: Therefore, the lawgiver of Zeus and the Pythian one surely did not legislate a lame courage, capable of resisting only toward the left, but powerless toward the right, the elegant, and the fawning?
ἢ πρὸς ἀμφότερα;
Or did they make it toward both?
ΚΛ. πρὸς ἀμφότερα ἔγωγε ἀξιῶ.
Cleinias: I, for my part, maintain it should be toward both.
ΑΘ. λέγωμεν τοίνυν πάλιν ἐπιτηδεύματα ποῖα ἔσθʼ ὑμῖν ἀμφοτέραις ταῖς πόλεσιν, ἃ γεύοντα τῶν ἡδονῶν καὶ οὐ φεύγοντα αὐτάς, καθάπερ τὰς λύπας οὐκ ἔφευγεν, ἀλλʼ ἄγοντα εἰς μέσας, ἠνάγκαζε καὶ ἔπειθεν τιμαῖς ὥστε κρατεῖν αὐτῶν;
Athenian: Let us then state again what sort of practices there are in both of your cities, which, by giving a taste of pleasures and not fleeing them—just as they did not flee pains—but leading men into the midst of them, forced and persuaded them by honors to master them.
ποῦ δὴ τοῦτʼ ἔστιν ταὐτὸν περὶ τὰς ἡδονὰς συντεταγμένον ἐν τοῖς νόμοις;
Where indeed is this same thing arranged in the laws concerning pleasures?
λεγέσθω τί τοῦτʼ ἐστὶν ὃ καὶ ἀπεργάζεται ὑμῖν ὁμοίως πρός τε ἀλγηδόνας καὶ πρὸς ἡδονὰς τοὺς αὐτοὺς ἀνδρείους, νικῶντάς τε ἃ δεῖ νικᾶν καὶ οὐδαμῶς ἥττους πολεμίων τῶν ἐγγύτατα ἑαυτῶν καὶ χαλεπωτάτων.
Let it be stated what this is which makes the same men among you brave alike toward both pains and pleasures, conquering what they ought to conquer and in no way weaker than the enemies who are closest to themselves and most difficult.
ΜΕ. οὕτω μὲν τοίνυν, ὦ ξένε, καθάπερ πρὸς τὰς ἀλγηδόνας εἶχον νόμους ἀντιτεταγμένους πολλοὺς εἰπεῖν, οὐκ ἂν ἴσως εὐποροίην κατὰ μεγάλα μέρη καὶ διαφανῆ λέγων περὶ τῶν ἡδονῶν· κατὰ δὲ σμικρὰ ἴσως εὐποροίην ἄν.
Megillus: In this way then, O stranger, just as I was able to state many laws set in opposition to pains, I would perhaps not be so well-off speaking about pleasures in terms of large and prominent parts; but in terms of small ones, I might perhaps be well-off.
ΚΛ. οὐ μὴν οὐδʼ ἂν αὐτὸς ἔγωγε ἐν τοῖς κατὰ Κρήτην νόμοις ἔχοιμι ἐμφανὲς ὁμοίως ποιεῖν τὸ τοιοῦτον.
Cleinias: Indeed, neither would I myself be able to show such a thing clearly in the laws of Crete.
ΑΘ. ὦ ἄριστοι ξένων, καὶ οὐδέν γε θαυμαστόν.
Athenian: O best of strangers, and indeed it is nothing wonderful.
ἀλλʼ ἂν ἄρα τις ἡμῶν περὶ τοὺς ἑκάστων οἴκοι νόμους ψέξῃ τι, βουλόμενος ἰδεῖν τό τε ἀληθὲς ἅμα καὶ τὸ βέλτιστον, μὴ χαλεπῶς ἀλλὰ πρᾴως ἀποδεχώμεθα ἀλλήλων.
But if, then, one of us should find fault with anything concerning the laws of each other's home, wishing to see both the truth and at the same time what is best, let us receive it from one another not with anger but gently.
ΚΛ. ὀρθῶς, ὦ ξένε Ἀθηναῖε, εἴρηκας, καὶ πειστέον.
Cleinias: You speak rightly, O Athenian stranger, and we must comply.
ΑΘ. οὐ γὰρ ἄν, ὦ Κλεινία, τηλικοῖσδε ἀνδράσιν πρέποι τὸ τοιοῦτον.
Athenian: Indeed, O Cleinias, such a thing would not be fitting for men of our age.
ΚΛ. οὐ γὰρ οὖν.
Cleinias: Certainly not, indeed.
ΑΘ. εἰ μὲν τοίνυν ὀρθῶς ἢ μή τις ἐπιτιμᾷ τῇ τε Λακωνικῇ καὶ τῇ Κρητικῇ πολιτείᾳ, λόγος ἂν ἕτερος εἴη· τὰ δʼ οὖν λεγόμενα πρὸς τῶν πολλῶν ἴσως ἐγὼ μᾶλλον ἔχοιμʼ ἂν ὑμῶν ἀμφοτέρων λέγειν.
Athenian: Now, whether someone find fault with the Laconian and Cretan constitutions rightly or not would be another story; but as for what is said by the many, I could perhaps state it better than both of you.
ὑμῖν μὲν γάρ, εἴπερ καὶ μετρίως κατεσκεύασται τὰ τῶν νόμων, εἷς τῶν καλλίστων ἂν εἴη νόμων μὴ ζητεῖν τῶν νέων μηδένα ἐᾶν ποῖα καλῶς αὐτῶν ἢ μὴ καλῶς ἔχει, μιᾷ δὲ φωνῇ καὶ ἐξ ἑνὸς στόματος πάντας συμφωνεῖν ὡς πάντα καλῶς κεῖται θέντων θεῶν, καὶ ἐάν τις ἄλλως λέγῃ, μὴ ἀνέχεσθαι τὸ παράπαν ἀκούοντας· γέρων δὲ εἴ τίς τι συννοεῖ τῶν παρʼ ὑμῖν, πρὸς ἄρχοντά τε καὶ πρὸς ἡλικιώτην μηδενὸς ἐναντίον νέου ποιεῖσθαι τοὺς τοιούτους λόγους.
For to you, if indeed the matters of your laws have been established even moderately well, one of the finest laws would be not to allow any of the young to search out which of them are well or not well made, but with one voice and from one mouth for everyone to agree that all are well established by the gods, and if anyone should speak otherwise, not to tolerate listening to him at all; and if an old man notices anything among your laws, he should make such observations to a ruler and to someone of his own age, in the presence of no young person.