§1.628ΑΘ. τρίτον δέ που δικαστὴν πρὸς ἀρετὴν εἴπωμεν, εἴ τις εἴη τοιοῦτος ὅστις παραλαβὼν συγγένειαν μίαν διαφερομένην, μήτε ἀπολέσειεν μηδένα, διαλλάξας δὲ εἰς τὸν ἐπίλοιπον χρόνον, νόμους αὐτοῖς θείς, πρὸς ἀλλήλους παραφυλάττειν δύναιτο ὥστε εἶναι φίλους.
Athenian: Let us, I suppose, speak of a third judge in respect of virtue, if there should be such a person who, having taken over a single kindred that is at variance, would destroy no one, but having reconciled them for the remaining time and established laws for them, would be able to keep guard over them toward one another so that they are friends.
ΚΛ. μακρῷ ἀμείνων γίγνοιτʼ ἂν ὁ τοιοῦτος δικαστής τε καὶ νομοθέτης.
Cleinias: Such a judge and lawgiver would be by far the better.
ΑΘ. καὶ μὴν τοὐναντίον γε ἢ πρὸς πόλεμον ἂν βλέπων αὐτοῖς τοὺς νόμους διανομοθετοῖ.
Athenian: And indeed, he would be legislating laws for them with a view to the very opposite of war.
ΚΛ. τοῦτο μὲν ἀληθές.
Cleinias: That is true.
ΑΘ. τί δʼ ὁ τὴν πόλιν συναρμόττων;
Athenian: What then of the one who harmonizes the city?
πρὸς πόλεμον αὐτῆς ἂν τὸν ἔξωθεν βλέπων τὸν βίον κοσμοῖ μᾶλλον, ἢ πρὸς πόλεμον τὸν ἐν αὐτῇ γιγνόμενον ἑκάστοτε, ἣ δὴ καλεῖται στάσις;
Would he order its life looking rather to its external war, or to the war that arises within it from time to time, which indeed is called civil war (stasis)?
ὃν μάλιστα μὲν ἅπας ἂν βούλοιτο μήτε γενέσθαι ποτὲ ἐν ἑαυτοῦ πόλει γενόμενόν τε ὡς τάχιστα ἀπαλλάττεσθαι.
Which indeed everyone would most of all wish neither ever to arise in their own city, nor, if it has arisen, to be rid of it as quickly as possible.
ΚΛ. δῆλον ὅτι πρὸς τοῦτον.
Cleinias: Clearly, looking to this.
ΑΘ. πότερα δὲ ἀπολομένων αὖ τῶν ἑτέρων εἰρήνην τῆς στάσεως γενέσθαι, νικησάντων δὲ ποτέρων, δέξαιτʼ ἄν τις, μᾶλλον ἢ φιλίας τε καὶ εἰρήνης ὑπὸ διαλλαγῶν γενομένης, οὕτω τοῖς ἔξωθεν πολεμίοις προσέχειν ἀνάγκην εἶναι τὸν νοῦν;
Athenian: And would anyone prefer that peace should come from civil war through the destruction of one of the two parties and the victory of the other, rather than that friendship and peace should come through reconciliation, and thus there should be a necessity to turn one's mind to external enemies?
ΚΛ. οὕτω πᾶς ἂν ἐθέλοι πρότερον ἢ ʼκείνως περὶ τὴν αὑτοῦ γίγνεσθαι πόλιν.
Cleinias: In this way, everyone would wish it to happen concerning their own city rather than in that way.
ΑΘ. οὐκοῦν καὶ νομοθέτης ὡσαύτως;
Athenian: Therefore, would not a lawgiver also do the same?
ΚΛ. τί μήν;
Cleinias: Why, of course.
ΑΘ. ἆρα οὖν οὐ τοῦ ἀρίστου ἕνεκα πάντα ἂν τὰ νόμιμα τιθείη πᾶς;
Athenian: Would not everyone then establish all customs for the sake of the best?
ΚΛ. πῶς δʼ οὔ;
Cleinias: How could they not?
ΑΘ. τό γε μὴν ἄριστον οὔτε ὁ πόλεμος οὔτε ἡ στάσις, ἀπευκτὸν δὲ τὸ δεηθῆναι τούτων, εἰρήνη δὲ πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἅμα καὶ φιλοφροσύνη, καὶ δὴ καὶ τὸ νικᾶν, ὡς ἔοικεν, αὐτὴν αὑτὴν πόλιν οὐκ ἦν τῶν ἀρίστων ἀλλὰ τῶν ἀναγκαίων·
Athenian: But the best is neither war nor civil war—and to stand in need of these is to be prayed against—but peace toward one another and at the same time goodwill. And indeed, it seems that for a city to conquer itself was not among the best things, but among the necessary ones.
ὅμοιον ὡς εἰ κάμνον σῶμα ἰατρικῆς καθάρσεως τυχὸν ἡγοῖτό τις ἄριστα πράττειν τότε, τῷ δὲ μηδὲ τὸ παράπαν δεηθέντι σώματι μηδὲ προσέχοι τὸν νοῦν, ὡσαύτως δὲ καὶ πρὸς πόλεως εὐδαιμονίαν ἢ καὶ ἰδιώτου διανοούμενος οὕτω τις οὔτʼ ἄν ποτε πολιτικὸς γένοιτο ὀρθῶς, πρὸς τὰ ἔξωθεν πολεμικὰ ἀποβλέπων μόνον καὶ πρῶτον, οὔτʼ ἂν νομοθέτης ἀκριβής, εἰ μὴ χάριν εἰρήνης τὰ πολέμου νομοθετοῖ μᾶλλον ἢ τῶν πολεμικῶν ἕνεκα τὰ τῆς εἰρήνης.
It is just as if someone should think that a diseased body, having received medical purging, is doing best at that time, but should not pay attention to the body that does not need it at all. In the same way, someone who thinks thus concerning the happiness of a city or even of an individual would never become a correct politician by looking only and first to external affairs of war, nor an accurate lawgiver, unless he should legislate the affairs of war for the sake of peace rather than the affairs of peace for the sake of war.
ΚΛ. φαίνεται μέν πως ὁ λόγος οὗτος, ὦ ξένε, ὀρθῶς εἰρῆσθαι, θαυμάζω γε μὴν εἰ τά τε παρʼ ἡμῖν νόμιμα καὶ ἔτι τὰ περὶ Λακεδαίμονα μὴ πᾶσαν τὴν σπουδὴν τούτων ἕνεκα πεποίηται.
Cleinias: This argument, stranger, seems somehow to have been spoken correctly; nevertheless, I wonder if our customs and furthermore those of Lacedaemon have not put all their effort into these things for the sake of war.
§1.629ΑΘ. τάχʼ ἂν ἴσως·
Athenian: Perhaps indeed.
δεῖ δὲ οὐδὲν σκληρῶς ἡμᾶς αὐτοῖς διαμάχεσθαι τὰ νῦν ἀλλʼ ἠρέμα ἀνερωτᾶν, ὡς μάλιστα περὶ ταῦτα ἡμῶν τε καὶ ἐκείνων σπουδαζόντων.
But there is no need for us to contend harshly with them for the present, but rather to question gently, as both we and they are most earnest about these things.
καί μοι τῷ λόγῳ συνακολουθήσατε.
And follow along with me in the argument.
προστησώμεθα γοῦν Τύρταιον, τὸν φύσει μὲν Ἀθηναῖον, τῶνδε δὲ πολίτην γενόμενον, ὃς δὴ μάλιστα ἀνθρώπων περὶ ταῦτα ἐσπούδακεν εἰπὼν ὅτι—
"
οὔτʼ ἂν μνησαίμην οὔτʼ ἐν λόγῳ ἄνδρα τιθείμην
"
"οὔτʼ εἴ τις πλουσιώτατος ἀνθρώπων εἴη, φησίν, οὔτʼ εἰ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ κεκτημένος, εἰπὼν σχεδὸν ἅπαντα, ὃς μὴ περὶ τὸν πόλεμον ἄριστος γίγνοιτʼ ἀεί. "
ταῦτα γὰρ ἀκήκοάς που καὶ σὺ τὰ ποιήματα· ὅδε μὲν γὰρ οἶμαι διακορὴς αὐτῶν ἐστι.
Let us, at any rate, put forward Tyrtaeus, who was by nature an Athenian but became a citizen of these people here, who indeed of all men was most earnest about these things, saying that: "I would neither make mention of nor put in account a man...""...not even if he should be the richest of men," he says, "nor if possessing many goods," having mentioned pretty much all of them, "who does not always prove best in war." For you too, I suppose, have heard these poems; for this friend here, I think, is sated with them.
ΜΕ. πάνυ μὲν οὖν.
Megillus: Quite so, indeed.
ΚΛ. καὶ μὴν καὶ παρʼ ἡμᾶς ἐλήλυθε κομισθέντα ἐκ Λακεδαίμονος.
Cleinias: And indeed, they have also come to us, having been brought from Lacedaemon.
ΑΘ. ἴθι νυν ἀνερώμεθα κοινῇ τουτονὶ τὸν ποιητὴν οὑτωσί πως· ὦ Τύρταιε, ποιητὰ θειότατε—δοκεῖς γὰρ δὴ σοφὸς ἡμῖν εἶναι καὶ ἀγαθός, ὅτι τοὺς μὲν ἐν τῷ πολέμῳ διαφέροντας διαφερόντως ἐγκεκωμίακας—ἤδη οὖν τυγχάνομεν ἐγώ τε καὶ ὅδε καὶ Κλεινίας ὁ Κνώσιος οὑτοσὶ συμφερόμενοί σοι περὶ τούτου σφόδρα, ὡς δοκοῦμεν·
Athenian: Come then, let us question this poet together in some such way as this: "O Tyrtaeus, most divine poet—for indeed you seem to us to be wise and good, because you have praised in an extraordinary way those who excel in war—now, as it happens, I and this friend here and Cleinias of Knossos here are in strong agreement with you about this, as we think; but whether we are speaking about the same men or not, we wish to know clearly.
εἰ δὲ περὶ τῶν αὐτῶν λέγομεν ἀνδρῶν ἢ μή, βουλόμεθα σαφῶς εἰδέναι. λέγε οὖν ἡμῖν· ἆρα εἴδη δύο πολέμου καθάπερ ἡμεῖς ἡγῇ καὶ σὺ σαφῶς;
Tell us then: do you also, like us, clearly think there are two kinds of war?
ἢ πῶς; πρὸς ταῦτʼ οἶμαι κἂν πολὺ φαυλότερος εἴποι Τυρταίου τις τἀληθές, ὅτι δύο, τὸ μὲν ὃ καλοῦμεν ἅπαντες στάσιν, ὃς δὴ πάντων πολέμων χαλεπώτατος, ὡς ἔφαμεν ἡμεῖς νυνδή· τὸ δὲ ἄλλο πολέμου θήσομεν οἶμαι γένος ἅπαντες ᾧ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός τε καὶ ἀλλοφύλους χρώμεθα διαφερόμενοι, πολὺ πρᾳότερον ἐκείνου.
Or how?" To this, I think, even someone much inferior to Tyrtaeus would state the truth: namely, that there are two; one which we all call civil war (stasis), which is indeed the hardest of all wars, as we said just now; and the other kind of war, I think we would all agree, is that which we use when disputing against those outside and of other races, which is much milder than the former.
ΚΛ. πῶς γὰρ οὔ;
Cleinias: For how could it not be so?
ΑΘ. φέρε δή, ποτέρους, καὶ πρὸς πότερον ἐπαινῶν τὸν πόλεμον, οὕτως ὑπερεπῄνεσας, τοὺς δὲ ἔψεξας τῶν ἀνδρῶν; ἔοικας μὲν γὰρ πρὸς τοὺς ἐκτός·
Athenian: Come then, praising which of the two, and with a view to which war, did you so exceedingly praise those men, and censure the others?
εἴρηκας γοῦν ὧδε ἐν τοῖς ποιήμασιν, ὡς οὐδαμῶς τοὺς τοιούτους ἀνεχόμενος, οἳ μὴ τολμήσωσιν μὲν
"ὁρᾶν φόνον αἱματόεντα,"
"
καὶ δηίων ὀρέγοιντʼ ἐγγύθεν ἱστάμενοι. "
οὐκοῦν τὰ μετὰ ταῦτα εἴποιμεν ἂν ἡμεῖς ὅτι
σὺ μὲν ἐπαινεῖς, ὡς ἔοικας, ὦ Τύρταιε, μάλιστα τοὺς πρὸς τὸν ὀθνεῖόν τε καὶ ἔξωθεν πόλεμον γιγνομένους ἐπιφανεῖς.
For you seem to refer to those against external enemies; at any rate, you have spoken thus in your poems, as by no means tolerating such men as would not venture "to look upon bloody slaughter," "and, standing near, to reach out for the foes." Would we not then say after this that: "You indeed praise, as it seems, O Tyrtaeus, most of all those who become illustrious in foreign and external war"?
φαίη ταῦτʼ ἄν που καὶ ὁμολογοῖ;
Would he not, I suppose, say so and agree?